Identification: Akebono vs Somei-Yoshino

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 4, 2008.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Am I going to get in trouble here! Someone phoned me about some promo material she was writing in which she said that scouts would learn to distinguish Akebono from Somei-yoshino, and I had her remove that bit as being something impossible to learn. I'm starting to get it only this year. So far, I've learned:
    • Fully open Somei-yoshino blossoms are quarter-sized and Akebono blossoms come larger than that.
    • Akebonos have the staminode that you see in Douglas's photo and in one of mine. They occur on one-in-twenty to one-in-3000 blossoms, or yesterday, I thought it was one-in-300,000 blossoms on a group of trees I was studying so hard because I remembered seeing a staminode on one of them a week ago.
    • Somei-yoshino often but apparently not always have witches broom, but Akebonos do not. The trees usually seem a bit more contorted to me, so when I see a fine-looking tree that doesn't look contorted, I think it mustn't be Somei-yoshino, even though the rest of the characteristics seem to fit.
    • and to me the Akebono blossoms seem thinner or more diaphenous and the Somei-yoshino seem sturdier or thicker.
    They both open pinkish and fade to white, so depending on how long the blossoms have been on, both trees can look the same colour. It seems though that this year, Somei-yoshinos are open before the neighbouring Akebonos, so you get a contrast of the white Somei-yoshino and the pink-appearing Akebonos. Well, that is if those white things really are Somei-yoshino.

    There are other trees around with single white blossoms. See the Pandora thread, for instance, and the P.serrulata var.spontanea thread, which is Japanese Mountain Cherry. With the mountain cherry, it was the sepals that gave it away as being not Akebono or Somei-yoshino. With the Pandora, it's the tree shape.

    Akebono and Somei-yoshino are written up separately in the Akebono thread,
    the Somei-yoshino thread, and maybe the What cherry? Another single pinky white, early mid-season thread, if it turns out those are Somei-yoshino. I shouldn't be writing this up - I'm as confused as anyone.

    Among Vancouver street trees,
    There are approx 1,547 Akebono's.
    There are approx 80 Yoshino's.
    So you'll be much more often right guessing Akebono than Somei-yoshino, particularly for young trees.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  2. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are some pictures.
    Somei Yoshino spacerbox.jpg Akebono
    20080403_KitsBeach_Cutler_SomeiYoshino_2085r.jpg 20080404_Pendrell_AkebonoFlower_Cutle_2183.jpg

    Somei Yoshino spacerbox.jpg Akebonos
    Cutler_20070407_04_SomeiYoshino.jpg Cutler_20070327_03_Akebono_r.jpg Cutler_20070327_12_Akebono_r.jpg

    Somei Yoshino spacerbox.jpg Akebono
    Cutler_20070407_05_SomeiYoshino_r.jpg 20070328_Akebono_Cutler_1142r.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  3. spetrie

    spetrie Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Another view of an Akebono staminode
     

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  4. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Akebono vs Somei-Yoshino - what about witches' broom?

    My story has been that Somei-yoshino are susceptible to witches' broom and Akebonos are not. I thought I knew what that looked like, but now I'm not sure, since on this photo I've marked what I thought that was, but these are the Stanley Park Rose Garden Akebonos. The photo of the staminode is from another tree in the grove, but Joseph and I saw a staminode on the tree in the photo.
    20080418_StnlyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_4005mr.jpg 20080415_RoseGarden_Akebono_Cutler_3697.jpg

    So the questions are:
    1 - Is that witches' broom? If not, do you have a photo of witches' broom? Everyone keeps asking me what it looks like.

    2 - If it's witches' broom, what gives? I guess I have to drop that as a defining characteristic of not-Akebono.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The Yoshino goes quickly to white and would be seen by most as a white flowered tree. It does not produce the same effect as 'Akebono'.
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Now that the Somei-yoshino blossoms are getting old, the centres are getting deep pink and so the trees look a lot more pink. They did look quite white when they were out before the Akebonos, which looked very pink next to them. Both cultivars are getting pink centres now.
     

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  7. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Today I think I learned something. I noticed that this tree that Douglas identified as a Somei-yoshino last year or the year before (no, I can't figure out where - if I ever find it, I'll link to it, but it might have been in an email). It seemed very pale compared to the pink hue on all those not-yet open Akebonos around town. None of the blossoms on this tree has opened yet.
    20090403_PendrellGilford_Someiyoshino_Cutler_DSC01129.jpg 20090403_PendrellGilford_Someiyoshino_Cutler_DSC01133c.jpg

    Here's an Akebono that has open blossoms, and some of these buds pictured are about to open, but they're more pink in colour than anything on the Somei-yoshino, so it's not that the Somei-yoshino is further ahead in development that is making its blossoms whiter, as I think the Akebono is really further along.
    20090403_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01150.jpg 20090403_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01153.jpg 20090403_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01170.jpg

    So what I think I learned is that Some-yoshino have paler coloured blossoms than Akebono.
     
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I had understood that Somei-yoshino trees were prone to witches broom and other diseases whereas Akebonos were not, and that was one way we could tell the two apart. So I think I've been assuming some of the Stanley Park Akebonos were Somei-yoshinos, and then making assumptions about what other trees could or could not be based on that. I'm still pretty sure this is Somei-yoshino:
    20090413_StanleyPknrRoseGarden_SomeiYoshino_Cutler_DSC01621.jpg 20090413_StanleyPknrRoseGarden_SomeiYoshino_Cutler_DSC01622.jpg 20090413_StanleyPknrRoseGarden_SomeiYoshino_Cutler_DSC01623.jpg 20090413_StanleyPknrRoseGarden_SomeiYoshino_Cutler_DSC01625.jpg

    I have a better idea now of what are Akebonos, but I'm wondering if what was Akebono when these park trees were planted has changed, as these have several ratty Somei-yoshino characteristics.
    20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01564.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01565.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01569.jpg

    20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01571.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01572.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01574.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01577.jpg
     
  9. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Witches broom can occur to Somei-Yoshino, but it is not very common. It appears on Somei-Yoshino only at foggy and wet place. (So Vancouver seaside is the place for the disease) As I check Japanese dictionary, it is a disease not only for Sakura but more often to other plants.
    As I'm Japanese, I have seen plenty of Somei-Yoshinos, but Stanley Park ones are the first ones I have really seen very badly affected by Witches brooms. I have read the article written by a Japanese tree doctor about Witches Broom. Once it started, the tree with it won't be healthy again. He said when you found Witches broom, you should cut the part and burn it. (You should treat the cut and the saw you used for cutting must be disinfected.) Nor the tree would be weaker and weaker, also the disease will move to other Somei-Yoshino in the area.
     
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    So I wonder if Akebonos don't usually get Witches broom because they're not often planted with Somei-yoshinos that have it, but in the park, the two cultivars are near each other and there's a lot of it around, so it has infected the Akebonos.
     
  11. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    This is one of the ways I use to differentiate 'Akebono' from 'Somei-yoshino' at UBC. If the trees are big and old and I can't clearly see the flowers, I look for witch's brooms. If they're infected, they're 'Somei-yoshino'. I've never seen a witch's broom in an 'Akebono'. Check out the four trees on Northwest Marine Drive outside Nitobe Memorial Garden.
     
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Maybe I don't know what witches broom is, and people ask me that a lot, so it would help to know what it really looks like, if it's not what's in my photos below in the Akebonos. The Akebonos in the Stanley Park Rose Garden also have that weird branching disorder.
     
  13. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I’m sorry I didn’t write a reply soon, Wendy. Thank you, Douglas for the reply. As you know I didn’t know what witches broom was last year. My knowledge is from my electric dictionary and websites in Japanese and it is very limited.

    As Douglas wrote, I think Akebono wouldn’t suffer from witches broom . I think Akebono is a rather strong cherry tree. This is only my hypothesis but Akebono is a mixture of Somei-yoshino and some American cherry which is stronger than Japanese cherry, because in Japan there are about 100 kinds of cherries made from seedling of Somei-yoshino, but no Akebono was made in Japan.

    I read a report of a survey done in Kyoto in 2003. They choose one area (usual residential area) as a sample, divided it into 14 parts, checked all the cherry trees and assorted those into 5 ranks from very good to very bad (nearly dying).
    There were 197 cherry trees; 111 Somei-yoshino (56.3%), 64 Yama-zakura (32.5%), 12 Oshima-zakura (6.1%), 9 Sato-zakura (4.6%), 1 Edo-higan(0.5%). They were about 10 to 50 years old. There were 69 Cherry trees which had witches broom and 65 (94.2%) were Somei-yoshino. There were only 2 Yama-zakura, 1 Sato-zakura*, 1 Oshima-zakura suffered from witches broom. Witches broom was concentrated in some parts and there were more declined cherries in those parts. But even where the percentage of cherries which have witches broom was rather high, if they suffered just recently, cherries are still healthy. Also there were many very weekend cherries (especially Yama-zakuras) in even some area where not many cherries suffered from witches broom. There are 4 Somei-yoshinos nearly dying but one of them didn't suffer from Witches broom.
    * Sato-zakura (village cherry) is not a name of one cherry but group name of hybrid cherries.

    I also read other survey report named “Our Cherries are in Danger!” The survey was done by high school students in Iwaki city (located by the sea in northern Japan) in 1998. The result was that 83 % of the cherry they checked had witches broom. But cherries in downtown and industrial areas are not suffered as much as suburbs and rural areas.

    Even though they are old and big, some Somei-yoshinos don't have Witches broom and look very healthy. I think the one in QE Park and the one at Prince Edward & Woodstock don't have any Witches broom.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2009
  14. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Douglas and Mariko! I don't disbelieve anything either of you says, BUT, Wikipedia explains, for Witch's Broom: "A dense mass of shoots grows from a single point, with the resulting structure resembling a broom or a bird's nest."

    So isn't this it? These are the Akebonos (we determined last year that they're Akebonos) at the Rose Garden in Stanley Park. Also see posting #8 in this thread for a photo from last year.
     

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  15. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Actually I don't know. What I think witches broom (or witch's broom?) has small leaves when healthy parts still have only flowers and those leaves don't grow as big as usual leaves.
    The second picture doesn't have leaves I'm afraid. But these pictures were taken today(April 20) and in my neighbourhood I could see some Akebonos have healthy leaves on.
    If this tree doesn't have usual leaves yet, then it might have witches broom just started.
    If you can see Japanese site, you can see the pictures of witches broom.
    (Please try Unicode8, and other encode)

    How to treat whiches broom ( in Japanese)
    This Japanese site shows Stanley park's Somei-yoshino to show how a badly afected tree looks in summer.It saids only 'in Vancouver' but I think these are the Stanley Park one.
    Pictures with flowers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2009
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    That's what I learned from you, Douglas, so that's why this part of the thread, starting with my posting #8. I've also heard you say
    It seems I do understand what witch's broom looks like, as it's not a specific pathogen but the disarrangement of branches from various causes. OK, I went back to the Stanley Park rose garden, and I have matching sets now: tree, witch's broom and staminodes. The last photo has witch's broom and a staminode on the same branch. I think you can't run both of those lines now! One or the other. FWIW, I think they're 'Akebono' and I think it was Mariko who convinced me of that last year, but I can't find it written anywhere.

    Tree A
    20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02344.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02345.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02348.jpg

    Tree B (sorry about the blossom photo, but I think it does show the two staminodes)
    20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02351.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02352.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02356.jpg

    Tree C
    20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02357.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02358.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02359.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02365.jpg

    Tree D
    20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02366.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02367.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02372.jpg 20090421_StanleyPkRoseGdn_Akebono_Cutler_DSC02376.jpg
     
  17. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Today (April 22, 2009) I visited the Stanley Park and I was shocked to found a lot of cherries which looked like affected by witches broom.
    Many Akebonos in Rose Garden looked like affected. I came to this site last year, but I didn't notice. But now many trees have funny green leaves.
    20090422_StanleyPark_Akebono_Somei-yoshino&Shirotae,etc__Izaki 003.jpg
    2 Akebonos near the bridges affected very badly.
    20090422_StanleyPark_Akebono_Somei-yoshino&Shirotae,etc__Izaki 029.jpg 20090422_StanleyPark_Akebono_Somei-yoshino&Shirotae,etc__Izaki 001.jpg
    Both areas are not far from very badly affected Somei-yoshinos near the round-about. The sources in Japanese say witches brooms spread spores after flowers finish. So the disease spreads to near by trees.
    I think even though Akebono is stronger than Somei-yoshino, it is a kind of hybrid cherry, so Witch's broom can affect Akebonos.

    Yesterday (April 21) I visited Queen Elizabeth Park and found one Somei-Yoshino lightly affected by witch's broom just below the restaurant.
    20090421_QEParl Somei-Yoshino,Stellata&etc_Izaki 001.jpg
    Somei-yoshino and Akebonos near the entrance from 33rd were all right and healthy as far as I saw.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2016
  18. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Today I went to Vivian St. by the Fraiserview Golf Course. And I was terrified at the sight of Avium with witch's broom in the woods.
    1. two Avium trees::::::::::::::2. the Affected tree:::::::: 3. Witch's broom
    20090423_Vivian&Brightwood_Ichiyo&Avium_Izaki 001.jpg 20090423_Vivian&Brightwood_Ichiyo&Avium_Izaki 005.jpg 20090423_Vivian&Brightwood_Avium+Witch's broom_Izaki 006.JPG
    First I thought there were just 1 tall avium and short bushes of Avium.
    But the right side trunk is also Avium. It is affected by witch's broom and didn't have many flowers at high part but lower branches are still having flowers.
    So Witch's broom can affect very strong trees like Avium.
    Vancouver Park board must do some thing in a short future or the disease will spread to Street cherry trees.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  19. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Orchard cherry trees are what I usually see it on.
     
  20. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Ron, do you know how the owners of the orchards get rid of witches brooms?
    I have read in Japanese (Japanese way), but I can't find anything written in English.
     
  21. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I'm sure Douglas doesn't say this any more. 'Akebono' are generally problem-free, but not always, as has been mentioned in this thread. Here's a beautiful group of 'Akebono' on Hastings at Broughton. All of them look very healthy except for this one at the corner at Broughton.
    20120402_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_P1200034.jpg 20120402_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_P1200036.jpg 20120402_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_P1200037.jpg 20120402_HastingsBroughton_Akebono_Cutler_P1200039.jpg

    These trees are at Coal Harbour east from Nicola. Except for the totally unnecessary pruning, they look fine, but there's this one group of miniature flowers. The third photo isn't great, but will do for a size comparison wit the mini-blossoms in the fourth photo. Is that a beginning of witches broom?
    20120402_CoalHarbourNicola_Akebono_Cutler_P1200023.jpg 20120402_CoalHarbourNicola_Akebono_Cutler_P1200033.jpg 20120402_CoalHarbourNicola_Akebono_Cutler_P1200025.jpg 20120402_CoalHarbourNicola_Akebono_Cutler_P1200026.jpg
     
  22. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    These two trees look remarkably different even in bud. Here are trees at the entrance to Stanley Park, 'Somei-yoshino' looking kind of green-brown and 'Akebono' looking very pink. The fourth photo is 'Akebono' from a different location (posted in this thread in 2009), to show that it's not just the relative age of the two cultivars that is making the difference.
    20150309_StanleyParkEntrance_AkebonoAndSomei-yoshino_Cutler_152333.jpg 20150309_StanleyParkEntrance_Somei-yoshinoAndAkebono_Cutler_150354.jpg 20150309_StanleyParkEntrance_Akebono_Cutler_151113.jpg 20090413_StanleyPkTennisParking_Akebono_Cutler_DSC01571.jpg

    On the left is 'Somei-yoshino', on the right is 'Akebono'. The 'Somei-yoshino' buds are pale enough that the overall colour comes from the green bud scales (well, and the brown rot).
    20150309_StanleyParkEntrance_Somei-yoshinoCutler_150452.jpg 20150309_StanleyParkEntrance_Akebono_Cutler_151212.jpg


    With open flowers, I'm not so convinced that you can use the colour as a guide. The tree in the foreground in the first photo is 'Somei-yoshino', but the other looks pretty white and is 'Akebono', not quite entirely open. In the second photo, 'Akebono' surround the fully open 'Somei-yoshino'. I think in another week, the 'Somei-yoshino' flowers will be turning pink while the 'Akebono' flowers are still white.
    20150309_PendrellGilford_AkebonoAndSomei-yoshino_Cutler_160219.jpg 20150309_PendrellGilford_AkebonoAndSomei-yoshino_Cutler_160420.jpg
     
  23. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I was concerned that it was because the 'Somei-yoshino' trees were so old that they looked so different, but here are very young trees, same cultivar, also looking more green-brown than red. This set had a parks board tag saying "Prunus yed yoshino".
    20150310_CornwallBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160443.jpg 20150310_CornwallBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160447.JPG 20150310_CornwallBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160507.jpg

    These two did not have tags, but I'm pretty sure they are also 'Somei-yoshino'. Sparce pedicel hairs and serrated sepals.
    20150310_3rdBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160469.jpg 20150310_3rdBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160470.jpg 20150306_3rdBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160358.JPG 20150306_3rdBurrard_Somei-yoshino_Cutler_P1160366.jpg
     
  24. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Yesterday when Willard was taking some photos for me of another tree, we visited the last location in posting #22, Pendrell at Guilford in Vancouver's West End, and she couldn't resist photographing those trees. From her photos, one would wonder how we ever confused the two cultivars. At this stage, the difference is striking, but 'Akebono' look a lot more like 'Somei-yoshino' when the 'Akebono' are past their peak, the petals having shrunk a bit, with flowers more fully open, and the staminodes long gone.

    Here is 'Somei-yoshino', at peak bloom.
    20160307_PendrellGuilford_Somei-yoshino_Willard_unnamed5.jpg 20160307_PendrellGuilford_Somei-yoshino_Willard_unnamed6.jpg 20160307_PendrellGuilford_Somei-yoshino_Willard_unnamed7.jpg

    And 'Akebono', a few days behind.
    20160307_PendrellGuilford_Akebono_Willard_unnamed1.jpg 20160307_PendrellGuilford_Akebono_Willard_unnamed2.jpg 20160307_PendrellGuilford_Akebono_Willard_unnamed4.jpg
     

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