Acer saccharinum

Discussion in 'Maple Photo Gallery' started by wcutler, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Acer saccharinum trees are supposed to be not very common in Vancouver, but there seem to be several old examples of them in the West End, unless I've got this wrong. These have the deeply lobed leaves and silvery lower surfaces. There are no samaras now in the trees or paired on the ground, but the single dried out ones on the ground are about the right relative size according to Straley's diagrams in Trees of Vancouver. These trees have nice big limbs.

    These trees are on Comox east of Denman.
    20090710_ComoxDenman_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5450.jpg 20090710_ComoxDenman_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5451.jpg 20090710_ComoxDenman_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5453.jpg 20090710_ComoxDenman_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5457.jpg

    This tree is on Bidwell, north of Nelson (about two blocks from the others).
    20090710_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5460.jpg 20090710_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5461.jpg 20090710_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_5462.jpg
     
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Yep, they're Silver Maples.

    In the UK climate, it rarely (if ever?) produces seeds, maybe it has the same difficulty seeding in the Vancouver climate?
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The Bidwell tree has rather shallow lobes for a pure silver maple. Notice how it differs from the Comox close-up.
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I started wondering about that too, as several of the leaves don't have that larger centre lobe, but Straley says that A. saccharum leaves have petioles generally shorter than the blades, and these petioles seem generally longer than the leaves, so I think it's not that. It doesn't look like Norway maple to me - missing the rounded crown and elongated leaf tips and same colouring on both sides of the leaves. What else is in the running?
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Red and silver maples cross to produce Freeman maple.
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I did find one intact samara, which to me doesn't look that much like anything Straley drew, but I don't know the minimal differences. The second photo is of the samaras under the Comox A. saccharinum that is not in question.
    20090711_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04048.jpg 20090711_ComoxDenman_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04094.jpg

    Across the lane from my building on Bidwell, a block from these other trees, are three trees that look the same to me. The circumference of the trunk of this one is 137" (347cm).
    20090711_BidwellComox_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04035.jpg 20090711_BidwellComox_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04031.jpg 20090711_BidwellComox_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04042.jpg

    And on what would be Bidwell if it continued into the West End Community Centre are three more of these trees. In one of the photos, the leaves look like good examples of Acer saccharinum, but in the last photo from the same tree, they look more like the leaves in my photo in the first posting that Ron's questioning the id of.
    20090711_BidwellWECC_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04052.jpg 20090711_BidwellWECC_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04051.jpg
    20090711_BidwellWECC_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04057.jpg 20090711_BidwellWECC_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04060.jpg 20090711_BidwellWECC_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04061.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  8. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Ron. I found this Wikipedia page, which shows at the bottom a drawing of leaves and samaras for A. saccharinum that I think does look like these.
     
  9. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    The first pic on post #6 is a samara of a species in sect. Platanoidea; looks most like Cappadocian Maple, but could be Field Maple or (undersized aborted) Norway Maple. Second pic there does look like Silver Maple.

    So maybe a Freeman Maple? But has that been around for long enough as a cultivated plant in the PNW to reach the size and age of the tree shown? Also the crown shape is typical of pure Silver. I'd put it down to natural variation in the shape of the leaves, rather than a hybrid.
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    In Seattle there's at least one Freeman maple outside of the Arboretum over 70' tall. (Inside the Arboretum are two over 80' tall).

    Only clones are sold these days, but older plantings of seedling Red maples have a few chance hybrids

    --A.L. Jacobson, Trees of Seattle - Second Edition (2006)
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    There's so much variation in these leaves. I agree that a larger percentage of the leaves look more indented on the Comox St trees, but here are some more photos - this time making sure to get the right leaves with the right tree, as there are two of these trees on that half block of Bidwell. In both cases, following the tree is a photo of the leaves high up on the crown and a photo of the sucker growth.
    Tree near the corner
    20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04095.jpg 20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04097.jpg 20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04100.jpg

    Tree nearer the lane
    20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04103.jpg 20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04104.jpg 20090712_BidwellNelson_AcerSaccharinum_Cutler_DSC04109.jpg

    From what I've read, the Freeman maple should have red autumn leaves, while the Silver maple has yellow leaves. I seem to remember a lot of yellow in my neighbourhood, but I'll check in the fall.
     
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I don't remember if this community centre silver maple had its "poodle cut" trunk when I saw it the other day, or it's just that it particularly caught my attention after the difficulty of trying to measure one of the street trees whose trunks are totally surrounded by suckers.
     

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  13. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Looks like a few months growth on those stem sprouts, I'd guess they were last timmed last winter.
     
  14. prairiestyle

    prairiestyle Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Silver maples are EVERYWHERE in the midwest. They produce seeds by the millions, and are quite the nuisance to clean up after - especially the many that make it into gutters or the babies that sprout up in your beds. I've got an old tree in my front yard, and those "helicopters" (as we called them as children) are such a mess. I've seen 5-8 feet tall trees for sale at the local stores, and it always amazes me that they are offered... all you'd have to do is plant a seed and you'd have a 5-8 foot tree in a year or two!

    But the leaves are quite pretty when blowing in the wind. :-)
     
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Some Silver Maple here produce multicolored fall foliage displays that are quite nice. Theoretically, Freeman Maple can have any combination of characters between the two parent species - not all clonal selections produce predominantly red fall color. And not all specimens present are clonal selections - particularly larger, older ones.

    http://www.chicagolandgrows.org/downloads/marmofreeman.pdf
     
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Ron, thanks for the link to the photos and description of Marmo Freeman Maples. It says they produce no fruit, whereas Silver Maple seeds mature in early summer. So far, nothing is ruling out Freeman Maple for the Bidwell trees.
     
  17. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I posted this photo ages in another thread in which I'm (still) trying to ID my local maples, but it works as a follow-up here. When the Marmo Freeman Maples page says it produces no seed, does that mean no samaras? Or are there such things as infertile samaras?

    If the former, then this would not be that clone. One thing ruled out. It still could be a naturally occurring hybrid.

    I've never noticed samaras on this tree except in this one instance when I caught the developing ones in the spring.
     

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  18. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Wendy,

    I believe Freeman Maples can produce samaras, sometimes sparse. I don't know for the Marmo cultivar particularly.

    Many maples including Silver maples produce parthenocarpic samaras, that is without a seed in the samara. Parthenocarpy means development of fruit without fertilization, so such fruit has no seed.

    cheers,

    -E
     
  19. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Emery. I previously misquoted the Marmo Freeman website as saying it produced no fruit; it says "no seed", as I stated in yesterday's posting. So nothing is ruled out.
     
  20. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    The tree with which I started this thread, at the lane behind my building, has been deemed an Acer x freemanii. Here are some recent photos (also posted in another thread).
    AcerXfreemanii_BidwellJepson-YoungLa_Cutler_20200429_162338.jpg AcerXfreemanii_BidwellJepson-YoungLa_Cutler_20200429_162610.jpg AcerXfreemanii_BidwellJepson-YoungLa_Cutler_20200429_162710.jpg AcerXfreemanii_BidwellJepson-YoungLa_Cutler_20200429_163002.jpg

    So for a comparison, I am posting some photos from a street on the east side of Vancouver with several big old Acer saccharinum. The samaras look the same to me - I don't think they can be an identifying feature, except that the uneven samaras are characteristic of both these trees, or is the skinniness of the samara here characteristic? First five photos are from one tree, next three from one different tree.
    Acer-saccharinum_2626Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_144309.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2626Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_144425.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2626Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_144416.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2626Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_144435.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2626Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_144556.jpg
    Acer-saccharinum_2647Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_145335.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2647Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_145255.jpg Acer-saccharinum_2647Oxford-Penticton_Cutler_20200508_145414.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
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  21. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    @wcutler, Hi Wendy, re second from last photo, I think that's the most amazing trunk I've ever seen. Wow !!!
     
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