Identification: Acer palmatum 'Tsuri nishiki'?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Nik, Apr 27, 2024.

  1. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Didn't go to Westonbirt today due to rain. Good news is we are going tomorrow (Friday) instead.
     
  2. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    I hope you have a lovely trip, @maf !

    I just received my copy of van Gelderen’s Maples for Gardens. I was so excited and hoping I will be able to finally confirm the ID of my maple, but no luck… a bit disappointing.

    When I went to the Morris Arboretum, the moment I caught a glimpse of the first specimen of ‘Tsuri nishiki’ I knew it was not my maple. What a difference it makes to experience a tree in person instead of looking at pictures of few leaves. Yes, the leaves had some similarities, but everything else was wrong. Bark color, growth habit, vigor… so dramatically different.

    I know that these pictures exactly match my tree:

    https://www.gapphotos.com/imageresults.asp?txtsearchterm=kogane-nishiki

    But both Vertrees and van Gelderen have images in their books that do not match ‘Kogane nishiki’ in the pictures in that link. Their descriptions also do not fit well… or at all. And they also do not match each other…

    I look forward to seeing your pictures of ‘Kogane nishiki’ at Westonbirt. You are my last hope.

    Again, have a wonderful day enjoying the Arboretum!
     
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  3. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hey thanks @Nik , I had a good day. I took a real camera instead of (well, in addition to) a phone and quite enjoyed it for a change! A bit tired after five hours of driving and five hours of wandering round an arboretum so the photo's will likely stay on the camera till tomorrow.

    However, I can report that the 'Kogane nishiki' at Westonbirt is in no way a match for your maple, it more or less matches the Vertrees description of a small leaved palmatum, green with slightly yellow new foliage. Not sure what is in the gapphotos link but it is definitely not the same as 'Kogane nishiki' at Westonbirt.

    Also, the so-called 'Tsuri nishiki' was a massive disappointment, not even a matsumurae group maple, more like a regular palmatum. 100% incorrect for the cultivar.

    'Elegans' was probably the closest to your maple that I saw today but even that was definitely not the same.

    I will post pictures of all three in this thread tomorrow for the sake of completeness, but I am sure you will agree they are not like your tree...
     
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  4. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Hi @maf , glad to hear you had a good day at Westonbirt!
    I guess the ID of my favorite maple remains shrouded in mystery…
    I do look forward to seeing the pictures nonetheless. I am sure the trees were beautiful and well cared for. Thank you so much again for checking these specimens!
     
  5. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    @maf , does Masayoshi Yano's 'Book For Maples' have ‘Kogane nishiki’ in it? I will be very interested in seeing a picture if it is there.
     
  6. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    No it is not mentioned or pictured in Yano's book.

    Here are the pictures of 'Kogane nishiki' at Westonbirt which match the Vertrees description and are not unlike Harold Greer's picture in the 4th edition of Japanese Maples. (No picture in the 2nd edition but description is largely the same.)
    P1020468.JPG P1020470.JPG P1020471.JPG P1020476.JPG
     
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  7. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here is the maple labelled as 'Tsuri nishiki' at Westonbirt. It does not match the book descriptions or the Morris arboretum trees, and appears to be of the palmatum species/sub-species rather than matsumurae as it should be. It is a handsome enough tree but was a very big disappointment to see!
    P1020459.JPG P1020462.JPG P1020463.JPG P1020465.JPG P1020466.JPG
     
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  8. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here are pictures of the small 'Elegans' at Westonbirt. There was a larger one but I did not take photo's as it had lost its label and did not take pics just in case I was looking at the wrong tree. (In hindsight it was the correct tree - the interactive map works very well on a phone if you allow it location permissions to overlay your position from GPS.) The larger one was slightly more upright, but still wide-spreading. It is a lot closer to your tree than the other two I posted today, but does not appear to be the same.
    P1020515.JPG P1020516.JPG P1020517.JPG P1020518.JPG
     
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  9. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Thanks @maf ! Yes, ‘Kogane nishiki’ at Westonbirt is most definitely not a match to my tree.
    It seems that there is a big mess in the Japanese maple nursery business relating to these two cultivars. My tree, whatever it is, appears to be sold in the US as ‘Tsuri nishiki’. In Europe, the exact same tree is sold as ‘Kogane nishiki’. It most certainly is not the former, and almost certainly not the latter.
    The only other cultivar that it could be is ‘Nicholsonii’, because of the close similarities to leaf shape/size/color… but the growth habit and exceptional vigor do not match that variety. Unless it is some sport of ‘Nicholsonii’ with these characteristics that somehow found its way being traded under two different names on each side of the Atlantic. I know @emery has a specimen of ‘Nicholsonii’ (from posts in the Spring Maples thread). I would love to see a couple of pictures of the bark of mature branches (4- or 5-year old). Just to exclude that unlikely possibility. @emery , the next time you are passing by your ‘Nicholsonii’, can you take few photos of the bark? TIA
     

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  10. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Here is the bark on my tree. It has been a rainy day and that changes the color a little bit. The water makes the brown horizontal lines (node marks) and other brown spots much more pronounced. I will also snap some pictures when it’s dry, hopefully tomorrow.
     

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  11. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Here is a picture on a European website (vivainord.it) of this maple’s bark.
     

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  12. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    And here is my maple’s bark, all dried out this morning. It almost (of course, not quite) reminds me of striped maple’s bark. It is very decorative, especially in winter.
     

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  13. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    @emery , I highly recommend this maple for your Aceretum. You will not regret it, even if it doesn’t have an ID. (Or, more likely, it does have a name, I just haven’t figured it out yet.)
     
  14. wind-borne

    wind-borne Contributor

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    I think you have ruled out decisively but here are pictures of 'Kogane nishiki' from Greer, the photograher whose fall picture was in 4th edition of Japanese Maples mentioned above. The fall one is the same as in the book but can be viewed much larger on a computer screen. The mid season picture has leaves that look much narrower but not so much as yours.
    Also included his 'Tsuri nishiki' pictures as the mid season one is interesting,
     

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  15. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Thank you so much, @wind-borne , this is very helpful! The pictures from reputable sources, like the ones you attached, and the specimen at Westonbirt that maf photographed are very convincing in showing that ‘Kogane nishiki’ is completely different from the tree I am trying to identify. The pictures of ‘Tsuri nishiki’ are also very nice and are very accurate for the cultivar. I posted pictures of 3 specimens that I observed at the Morris Arboretum in the picture gallery section of the forum, if you are interested. The leaves look quite similar, although my tree doesn’t have the wavy character of the lobes. That is where the similarities end. When I observed the 3 ‘Tsuri nishiki’ at Morris in person, I realized that every other feature of my tree is different. Growth habit, vigor, bark color, even leaf color.
    So my quest for the ID of my favorite maple continues…
    Thanks again! I appreciate it!
     
  16. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Even well-known and trusted sources sometimes get it wrong. Westonbirt’s ‘Tsuri nishiki’ (see maf’s pictures above), or the photo and description of this cultivar in van Gelderen’s ‘Maples for Gardens’ (attached here) are way off.
     

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  17. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    This morning I started my approach grafting attempt on this tree. A practice run, since all my previous attempts at grafting using the side veneer method have failed miserably… Will report how it goes. Decided to try it on this tree, because if it works, I will be happy to have another specimen that can be planted in our front yard, on the other side of the house.
     

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  18. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Good luck N. I have found a 50 - 60% success rate with home grafting, so your not alone.
     
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  19. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Thanks, D! I’m not holding my breath, but let’s see what happens…
     
  20. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    I just found more pictures of ‘Kogane nishiki’ from a photo sharing site (ipernity.com) that match my maple. Even the interesting bark is visible (in the first one).
     

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  21. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    This is what I have managed to conclude so far:

    There are two very different palmatum cultivars that are both named ‘Kogane nishiki’.
    The first one, the “old” ‘Kogane nishiki’, is what is in all the books, at Westonbirt, and also being offered at Esveld and Maillot.
    The second one, the “new” ‘Kogane nishiki’ must have originated somewhere in Europe relatively recently, and is being sold by numerous nurseries across the continent. Why was the name of the old, unrelated cultivar chosen for the new one is beyond me… They could have even chosen the translated name ‘Golden brocade’ instead…
    There is very little in common between the two varieties, except that both of them apparently grow into huge specimens over time. Extremely vigorous.
    There are no nurseries in the US that sell any (old or new) ‘Kogane nishiki’, however, some of them sell the “new” ‘Kogane nishiki’ under the name ‘Tsuri nishiki’.
    Completely and utterly confusing…

    At the end, I have settled on using the name ‘new Kogane nishiki’ for my maple.
    (I could find absolutely no other variety that matches it.)

    Many, many thanks to everyone who helped me in my search for the ID!
    It is a lovely tree, give it a shot if you have the space for it!
     
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  22. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Fully into the swing of ‘nishiki’, even with quite a bit of leaf deformation due to aphids damage earlier in the season. I have read conflicting explanations for what ‘nishiki’ means in the names of Japanese maples (books, this forum, other online sources). Some claim that it has to do with variegation, others say that it is not variegation but rather thin, twiggy branches that are growing intertwined. My interpretation is that ‘nishiki’ is the brocade (or tapestry) of different colors present at the same time on the tree. Variegation can also produce similar brocade effect, but I don’t believe it is the primary meaning of the word.
     

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  23. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I think in the maple world nishiki is used to highlight variegation. Yes there are others that say it is brocade, but again my Brocade maple is also variegated.
    A good conversation point N.
     
  24. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    D, I completely agree that this is the case. However, there are plenty of non-variegated cultivars that have ‘nishiki’ in their names. I think for them the different colors explanation makes sense.
    My tree had fantastic early spring colors this year, but late spring colors have been not as good as usual. I am guessing too much cloudy weather and a lot of rain are to blame.. Here are some pictures from this morning, after yet more rain, compared with a color display from almost exactly four years ago (last picture, taken May 20, 2020). Sorry for the garage roof making it into the photos, I could only take pictures from higher up from that angle.
     

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  25. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Exceptions to the rule are found everywhere in the natural world.
    And don't apologise for the garage roof, your maple sits perfectly there N.
     

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