Acer palmatum 'Peaches and Cream'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by Elmore, Jan 31, 2004.

  1. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    AHA! I'd say that's definitive. Great piece of info, thanks! And I really loved the photo and the links. I could see some consistency. Just one puzzlement… I wonder why they called it Peaches and Cream rather than Strawberries and Cream or Raspberries and Cream if it had pink edges all along? Oh well.

    OK. So then what are my two trees? Something else? Cool. I hereby dub them Peach Surprise because I'm surprised by this news. Just kidding. I'll call them (in my mind) Peaches and Cream derivatives. Whatever they are, I adore them. I especially appreciate the one that glows in late afternoon sun and looks like Peach Schnapps and old fashioned vanilla ice cream. But now, a new quest...Peaches and Cream true form!

    Right, cuz we've never seen alternate spellings before. Snicker, snicker.

    Well, I can tell you that what I've seen sold as Peaches and Cream, both in bulk as youngsters and as large adults, did actually look pretty uninteresting. I could see someone maybe calling it common. What I saw looked like a watered down 'Shigitatsu Sawa' with the tiniest bit of rose blush, less division, and less reticulation than I would have liked.
     
  2. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    The form you have shown there maf is the form that was sold to me as "Sister ghost", and it is the form that I refer to as the "Cream" form. It is most definitely not Sister ghost so don't let that confuse the discussion. The other form we see here is what I call "Peaches". I'm going to get a little off course here, but I need to pull in some similar forms to clarify what I am seeing.

    The trouble I have is that Reticulatum is reportedly very similar or perhaps synonymous with Shigitatsu sawa. I cannot vouch for that as we don't see it over here in the US, but that is what I have seen from descriptions and images. On Shigitatsu sawa the lobes are not very deeply divided, and they cup slightly upward in spring rather than rolling downward (as with the forms of Aka and Beni shigitatsu sawa that I have seen as well as their descendants).

    A couple of side notes to go along with some of these: Gold Reticulated looks more like an Aka or Beni form in leaf shape, but is similar in color to Shigitatsu sawa (although more cream and white rather than chartreuse). Alpine silver thread is very similar to Shigitatsu sawa in leaf shape and color.

    So, Purple ghost, the two forms of Kasagiyama that I have, Amber ghost, First ghost, Gold Reticulated and Olsen's frosted strawberry all show leaf shape characteristics similar to the Aka or Beni shigitatsu sawa. That is the downward rolled lobe margins.

    Shigitatsu sawa, Alpine silver thread, Reticulatum and Reticulatum Como (from images I've seen) all show the cupped lobe characteristics.

    This is where it gets confusing for me. The "Peaches" form has a leaf shape like that of Shigitatsu sawa but with a color closer to that of an Aka or Beni form. The "Cream" form has a leaf shape closer to that of an Aka or Beni form (although I can see where some influence from Shigitatsu sawa could come in), but with a color closer to that of Shigitatsu sawa.

    From what I can tell the images of Buchholz' First ghost looks eerily similar to the "Cream" form that I am seeing. The First ghost that I have looks like a lighter colored version of Aka/Beni shigitatsu sawa (almost identical in leaf shape but with only a hint of pink or peach coloring in the leaves). So I don't know what has gone on, but I'm convinced that there are some rather large mistakes out there on a group of relatively new selections.

    My conclusion thus far...don't assume any of your reticulated maples are what they say they are because they may just be mixed up. However, enjoy their beauty regardless because they are quite worthy no matter what their real name is.

    I didn't include Ariadne, Tiger rose, Elmwood, Will's Devine or Filigree because they appear to have different parentage. I didn't include the other ghosts and reticulates, because I either don't have them or haven't got a good feel for them yet.
     
  3. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,896
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    An interesting discussion for sure. I agree 'Reticulatum' is usually considered a synonym of 'Shigitatsu sawa', and even if they are different from one another (possible considering the long history of both) any differences are likely very slight. 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' is reported to be the pollen parent of the Australian 'Peaches and Cream' which would explain the leaf shape of that form.

    From references I have seen, the existence of several forms of 'Peaches and Cream' in the USA has been an accepted fact among nurserymen for years, no wonder it is a confusing situation. There doesn't seem to be much chance of returning to a time where only one clone is available with this name.

    I too enjoy the beauty of the reticulated maples and look forward to collecting more of them, whatever names they are sold under! As usual it is better to buy the plant you like the look of than the name you like the sound of.
     
  4. eq72521

    eq72521 Active Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Kennebunk, ME Z5B
    I think the peaches refers to the fall color, No?
     
  5. mapledia

    mapledia Active Member

    Messages:
    341
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Siskiyou mountains, so. OR
    Well, you may be right. I do note some peach color here, don't you? This photo was taken October 18 of Peaches and Cream:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. MrMaple

    MrMaple Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    East Flat Rock, NC US
    Here is a photo from one of my 'Peaches and Cream' from mid May 2010. The colors reflect the deep shade this tree has been in. Striking colors.

    Matt
     

    Attached Files:

  7. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    snohomish
    here are some early spring color for 2011
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 8, 2011
  8. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    snohomish
    here is the Peaches and Cream in July
     

    Attached Files:

  9. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    I have a small 3yr Peaches (from Diana at Topiary Gardens) that I am struggling with placing, and after reading the thread, I'm still not sure. I am contemplating putting it in our courtyard garden, but do not know if this is the best spot for it.

    Would this cultivar be better suited - and provide better color, as it were - to an area with some sun, or one that received no direct sun, but very, very bright shade? Also, and I know there are many factors that play into this, how fast/big does it typically grow? Is the form rather bushy-upright, or more narrow-upright?

    If those with first-hand experience with this cultivar could chime in, I would greatly appreciate it!!

    Thanks!
     
  10. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    Well since no one else has responded I'll give my two cents worth. If we ignore the multiple forms that go under the name Peaches and Cream, and just speak in general terms of reticulated maples I would consider the following:
    If I wanted a stronger pink coloration I would place it in direct sun for several hours (maybe 4 to 6 hours, preferably morning sun).
    If I wanted a more distinct reticulation with much less pink coloration I would site it in filtered shade.
     
  11. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    Sorry for the double post here, but I'm changing subjects a bit.

    For anyone that has 'First ghost' and the white form of 'Peaches and cream':
    is it plausible that the white form of P&C is actually First ghost in mass mislabeling?

    I know that First ghost has not been around that long, so that hinders this theory. However, the images that I am seeing of the white P&C are eerily similar to that of First ghost.

    The leaf shape of the pink P&C is far to different from the white form to assume that it could have changed colors...they are different trees.

    Of course it is difficult to tell with all the juicing going on, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has observed this closely when the trees have settled down with some age.
     
  12. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    new leaves, so very pretty... anxious to see which version of Peaches I have since there appear to be two or three...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    snohomish
    Having dealt with several different growing nurseries, I can say it is no surprise there is great variation in trees. I have seen large variation in a single cultivar from different growers. From the great growers I have seen some variation in a single cultivar. At some of the low quality places many of the trees are not at all like the cultivar.
    Ok then there is the management of nurseries. Some are very good at keeping inventory sorted correctly and then there is the opposite. I was at one nursery where the tree had no tag and when I asked about the tree the guy said I think it is so and so. Hejaz no clue he just guessed.
    As for P &C I heard a story about it in 2007 where one nursery had sold First Ghost to a local nursery labeled as Peaches & cream. The local nursery didn't worry they just sold the trees as labeled.
    So with all these different growers it is not going to be easy for cultivars to stay true to there mother tree.
     
  14. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Matt,

    The light form of Peaches and Cream was the predominant form sold in the northwest when I got into maples. I purchased two Peaches, one in 2003 from Forest Farms and one in 2005 from Nishiki Nursery, that were both light. Both of these maples were very young as as I bought them as liners or one gallons, probably 1-2 years old each. I would assume that meant they came from scion wood or stock plants that were 5-10 years old?? People were taking wood from very young trees at that time and still do, but that would mean the light form had been predominating around here since at least the mid 1990's.
    I ran into the dark from in 2004 when I bought a mislabeled Ariadne that was not in-leaf. When it leafed out, I saw what I had!! I purchased the First Ghost pictured here in 2004 from the now defunct Collectors Nursery in Washington state as a liner. This was the first year the Buchholz had released First Ghost for retail sale. First Ghost and the light form of Peaches and Cream are the same maple. So, were the duplicity or mix up started is for someone else to tell. I do not know the answer to that.

    Michael
     

    Attached Files:

  15. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,896
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
  16. blake

    blake Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas USA (8a)
    On May 27, 2010 in the ‘Aka shigitatsu sawa’ thread Jim states the following in response to an image Mapledia posted a couple of days prior: “Just for the record there is a Shiro (white) form of this Maple and mapledia your second plant may just be it. Can be seen in the Spring as a white with red colored "fingernails", finger tips, as we used to call them. Your young plant is showing this trait. The white for me turns a cream color by mid Spring. Hope it holds up for you over time.”

    The image Mapledia posted looks just like the white/cream form ‘Peaches and Cream’ seen in links and in images in this thread. I own a couple myself. So let’s assume that differentiating between the white form of Aka and the white/cream form of Peaches is difficult.

    Maybe what you’re seeing with ‘First Ghost’ is this white form of Aka?
     
  17. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    I appreciate the good discussion on this issue.

    Unfortunately, I have had several mislabeled plants come to me and have had to sort them out based on careful comparisons. It is especially frustrating for me as a propagator to have to question every stock tree I come across. And of course I can't in good conscious propagate a tree unless I'm extremely confident of it's legitimacy.

    What gives me fits with these trees [First ghost, white Peaches and Cream, pink Peaches and Cream, and white Aka shigitatsu sawa] is the leaf shape.

    I can certainly see how First ghost and the white Peaches and cream can be interchangeable because of the definite coloration (I had forgotten about Jim's input on the white Aka shigitatsu sawa). However, I occasionally see a forked central lobe which makes me uneasy about the leaf shape (the central vein makes a Y part way down the lobe).

    The pink Aka shigitatsu sawa I have definitely resembles First ghost and white Peaches in leaf shape, and I wonder if the whites could have occurred as a sport from the pink Aka shigitatsu sawa. Although for me the leaves on Aka shigitatsu sawa look bolder with wider lobes than the other two, and I never see a forked lobe.

    The pink Peaches and Cream, however, has a very different leaf shape when compared to the others. It has wider lobes, a more rounded outline, and appears less deeply divided.

    Interestingly enough, Buchholz' website has an interesting take on the group, they list "original peaches, peaches and c (the white), and peaches and cream (apparently the pink):

    Peaches

    And here first ghost straight from the source:
    First ghost

    On a side note Sister ghost is definitely unique. It has much more deeply cut leaves with strong teeth on the lobes. It also shows very little if any pink on the tips or in the center of the lobe. The coloration is much closer to that of Shigitatsu sawa, Alpine silver thread, or Shigi no hoshi.
     
  18. blake

    blake Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas USA (8a)
    Just for clarity sake, does this image resemble the pink 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' you have?

    Also, I just saw this description of 'First Ghost' on Buchholz's blog: "The first ghost to be discovered and named was, well, 'First Ghost'. It occurred as a branch mutation on Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa', where the light-colored leaves sat atop the host tree. One night, with visibility coming solely from the moon, it seemed an actual ghost was hovering over the tree. All of the other ghosts arose from seedling discoveries, with 'Purple Ghost' coming from the mother tree, Acer palmatum 'Kasagi yama', which resulted in a new cultivar much improved over its parent. The pollinator is unknown."
     

    Attached Files:

    • 014.jpg
      014.jpg
      File size:
      264.6 KB
      Views:
      412
  19. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    snohomish
    As for the original 'First Ghost' I had been told by Talon that the "mother tree" was a mutated branch. It is my understanding that the original First Ghost is planted in my garden and is about 7' tall. The coloration of the tree is very similar to the photo on maf's link but at the same time there are large differences in how the leaf lays. Too bad there photos of the full tree are not used, that would show possibly more differences.
    Later this year I will find out more about the coloring of some P&C when my scion wood P&C from Del Louck leafs out.
    I have posted several photos of P&C which are from Buchholz.

    On my personal note. I like the peachy color P&C better but then again I do like First Ghost.

    I don't think there is a way out of this, it looks like there will be two different trees with the same name. I guess it fits since there are lots of the same tree with different names.
     
  20. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    That explains a lot...but there will always be questions when dealing with these maples I suppose.

    Blake that picture you have shown there looks more like Olsen's frosted strawberry, Kasagiyama, or Purple ghost to me. My Aka shigitatsu sawa is never that deep pink in coloration. It is closer to that of Amber ghost for comparison.
     
  21. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    snohomish
    here is the is a couple photos of a Peaches & Cream, (left) and a First Ghost (right). The Peaches & Cream is a tree I received from Del Louck.
    The tree I posted last year has a completely different look.

    For clarification, Post #57 & #58 are of a Peaches and Cream from Buchholz.

    In the photos of this post, The left tree is a Peaches and Cream from Del Loucks and the tree on the right is a First Ghost from Buchholz.
    Both trees were in full shade.

    The noticable differences (in person) One the P&C has a much more yellowish white than the FG. The red coloration on the ends is also a different color. The leaf shapes are similar but different, the FG leaves tend to curly a little more and seem to have more serrated edges. It is very tough to tell the difference but they are different. (note: both trees are very old trees with over 2" caliper trunks. Del's tree was used for scion so it is smaller but I would say they are both about the same age (which I do not know exact age))
     

    Attached Files:

    • 013.jpg
      013.jpg
      File size:
      302.5 KB
      Views:
      475
    • 015.jpg
      015.jpg
      File size:
      519.5 KB
      Views:
      581
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  22. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    That is interesting...for me my first ghost first emerges more like the one on the left (your p&c). After about 10 to 14 days it looks like the one on the right (first ghost). Also the pink tips do not show up for me in the shade, only when given sun. Also, from year to year the degree of reticulation varies slightly based on fertility.

    I'm a bit confused, is the tree on the right the same tree you have posted from last year?


    edit:
    Thanks for the clarification
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  23. audiolover

    audiolover Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Zone 5 Indiana Usa
    My peaches and cream 5-7-13
     

    Attached Files:

  24. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    The leaves on mine were fairly green, but now I've noticed that several of them are starting to get these rosy-peach hues - this is my first spring with this cultivar, so is this normally how the colors progress?
     

    Attached Files:

  25. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    I don't think you can expect to get normal colors on the first year with these types.

    But typically the pink shades develop in more sunlight in the late spring period, but so does the green between the veins. Like most other "red" cultivars, the red pigments develop stronger after the first couple of weeks of spring, and they fade in the heat of the summer. There are a few exceptions of course (Deshojo group).

    So, for best reticulation more shade is preferred, for stronger red hues more sun is preferred.
     

Share This Page