Acer palmatum 'Osakazuki Aureum'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by winterhaven, Mar 25, 2009.

  1. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    My new baby, Osakazuki Aureum, arrived today from Greer Gardens.

    Here is what they have to say about the little dear...
    Acer palmatum ‘Osakazuki Aureum’ — 36', AMOENUM, green. Same as ‘Osakazuki’ in growth habit, form and summer leaf color, however the spring growth is a nice, bright yellow. The fall show will be just as beautiful, this just adds one more dimension to an already beautiful tree.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Sounds lovely Winter.

    Could someone let me know if this plant made it onto the new checklist? If so has it been designated an official number?

    Many Thanks
     
  3. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Poetry, it isn't in the new checklist. Anyway I'm not sure we're allowed to use "Aureum" any more: since 1959 cultivar names must not be Latin or "Latinized." I wonder if there's a good justification for this, especially when referring to a modifier as widely used as Aureum.

    -E
     
  4. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    I don't know what to say about the name, except that I didn't name it. I bought it based on the prediction of leaf habit and (to my knowledge) Greer Gardens' good reputation.

    I'll keep taking photos and posting them as the tree matures. Should be interesting.

    Still waiting for leaves, but getting closer...
     

    Attached Files:

  5. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    Could be an old form, from my understanding there are 5 or 6 different forms of Osakazuki dating back before the new standards. It is also improper now to name a cultivar a combination of two languages, so it would be illegitimate from two different standards. We don't however, change old names to fit the new rules.
     
  6. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Thanks, Matt.

    Well, leaves are finally starting to emerge. I don't know that I'd say they are yellow. Maybe later? Hmmm. I'll keep posting as leaves develop.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    This is how the plant looks today. I must say it is disappointing. Sigh.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    certainly different from osakazuki, which does leaf out quite red. Sounds like another cultivar entirely.
     
  9. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Dickson, TN
    Winter,

    This is what my Osakazuki looks like in the spring. These leaves are a little farther along than yours, but you can see they have a red edge, and they look much more red when they're just unfurling. They also have brilliant red leaf sheaths that fall off rather quickly, but are quite showy. Also notice the stem color. Osakazuki has red stems and leaf petioles - your plant has green stems.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Thanks, K4, emery. Sounds like I need to call Greer Gardens on Monday.
     
  11. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    I talked with Diane at Greer Gardens yesterday. She advised that I watch the plant for a few years and if it doesn't perform as advertised they'll refund my money at that time. They have added a note in my file and promised to talk with the grower. Additionally she's going to pull one out of their greenhouse and put it in a shadier location and see if it starts to perform similarly to mine. This is what is looks like today. Sigh.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Three days later...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Years ago the Maple names with Latin
    surnames all originated in Europe. We
    forget or did not know that some of those
    plants came into Europe from Japan. Yes,
    in many cases the newly named plants from
    those original imports did yield progeny that
    were different than the parent plants and thus
    new names were given to those plants, mostly
    by arboretums and by plant enthusiasts. The
    US principally named the US selected out
    Maples with English surnames. Thus the
    old Maple Butterfly has a US origin and is
    not directly related to Kocho nishiki from
    Japan, which upon translation means
    Butterfly.

    We do have some variant form Maples
    that do indeed have both a Japanese
    surname followed by a Latin name.
    So, there is precedence for such
    naming. We also have had American
    grown Maples with Japanese surnames
    that used to drive the purists with these
    plants bonkers that someone would do
    such a thing. We have seen plants
    named in Europe with Americanized
    names before and we've had American
    grown Maples given Latin names before
    such as Roseomarginatum, the parent
    plant for Butterfly. Roseo marginatum
    was an Argenteo (Germany) group variant
    form (this group is related to Hikasayama
    and Higasayama and is not related to Kagiri
    nishiki) and we have the English named
    variegated dissectum Roseo-marginatum,
    which to some people is related to Kagiri
    nishiki but not to others. I've owned all
    three of these Roseo named plants at
    one time or another as well as the
    variegated dissectum Roseo pictum
    from Germany.

    [Note: there is another Roseo group
    which encompassed members of the
    Versicolor group, one Maples was
    named Roseo versicolor as I recall.]

    I find it ironic that when we look at the
    photo of Mr. Vertrees Osakazuki leaf
    when compared to a linearilobum leaf
    (page 40, second edition Japanese
    Maples
    book) that no one has bothered
    to ask themselves why doesn't my
    Osakazuki retain such a dark green
    colored leaf?

    [Three years ago I saw a mature Saoshika
    come into a nearby retail nursery from
    Iseli nursery that had leaves as large as
    my hand. I was confused with this Maple
    at first by the sheer size of the leaves.
    I had not seen leaves this big since
    viewing Don Kleim's Osakazuki that
    came from Koichiro Wada in Japan
    in the 50’s and had to take a look at
    this Maple in a private collection to
    rule out that the unmarked Saoshika
    could not be an Osakazuki.] We can
    read in the description of Osakazuki
    that the size of the leaves are some
    of the largest of all of the palmatums
    and again no one asks themselves
    why are the leaves on my Maple so
    small in size in comparison? True
    form Osakazuki has very large sized
    leaves, almost hand sized and no
    one seems to know this. The reason
    why is that few of you have ever seen
    the right Maple with an Osakazuki name.

    Even the form variants Osakazuki akame
    which came from Japan and Beni osakazuki
    which also came from Japan are not directly
    related to Osakazuki at all, they are probably
    both form variants of Taihai. When a nursery
    in Oregon started selling Osakazuki rubrum
    years ago I had to know where that Maple
    came from, who owned the original plant
    and where was it so I could see it. I was
    asked to find it and I eventually did and
    brought a couple of five gallons over time
    back to Fresno with me.

    So, in essence before we start to shoot
    daggers at people based on whether the
    Osakazuki aureum is legitimate or not
    it may be incumbent on someone to
    find the original plant or at least talk
    to the person that called the Maple
    by this name.

    There is some truth to the waiting we
    may have to spend in order to know
    what the Maple will do over time. I
    had to wait over 20 years to see that
    my Simonii Trident Maple is a cork
    bark. I had to wait over 20 years
    to see my Senkaki yield variegated
    leaves. I've seen it take 12-15 years
    before we see the allover aocha colored
    leaves of Aoyagi. I've seen variegated
    Maples like my tissue culture grown
    Beni schichihenge lose its variegation
    after seven years and then not produce
    a variegated leaf again for twelve years
    and then only one branch on the tree
    held the variegated leaves and has for
    the next three years since. There are
    anomalies that these plants have
    yielded over the years but we have
    to sometimes wait years to see them
    do it, let alone sustain them.

    I am not saying either way that an
    Osakazuki aureum cannot exist
    but I am real hesitant to go along
    that this Maple is a descendant
    from Osakazuki but it could be.
    No matter what may seem implausible
    in these plants we have to remain
    open minded at all times that it is
    a possibility. Inasmuch as I feel
    there has not been gametic exchanges
    to yield bona fide hybrid plants in
    the wild that can be proven, I have
    suspected that in some Maples it
    has happened but it may take years
    for us to see it and we can see some
    of these expressions over time if we
    study the plant long enough. Why
    a green leafed Maple over time will
    become an aocha colored plant.
    Is this a natural occurrence or is
    the plant as it aged now showing
    us that it does indeed have a
    mixed genome as a result from
    sexual reproduction. Genetic
    tests may be able to tell us
    more but we have to know the
    genetic makeup of both the
    seed parent plant as well as
    the pollen parent plant to know
    for sure. Anything else would
    be conjecture and may not ever
    be proven. This is one reason
    why some Universities chose
    to introduce foreign rootstocks
    into the equation feeling that
    the rootstock can influence the
    genetic makeup of the scion
    plant and later was proven to
    be true in some instances,
    as an example, in known
    Citrus trials and studies.
    Can also happen with
    Maples as well.

    Jim
     
  14. JohanAbrandt

    JohanAbrandt Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Skane, Sweden
    That picture is pretty much exactly what my Osakazuki looked like 2 weeks ago.
     
  15. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Dickson, TN
    Here's a pic of a leaf from my Osakazuki resting in my hand. Mr. Shep, does this look about right? The only other Palmatums I have with leaves close to this size are 'Omato' and 'Utsu semi' (which actually has the largest - they're enormous!)
     

    Attached Files:

  16. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    mr.shep - thank you for that lengthy and informative reply. I've read it twice but I'm still digesting it. I'll have to chew on it more when I have more time.

    And thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

    K4, how many centimeters are you getting in your leaves? Vertrees/Gregory writes "9cm long and 12-14 cm wide. On very vigorous young shoots the leaves may grow to 12-13 cm long and 17-18 cm wide."

    And later the book talks about cupping at the base, which is what I find striking. I know that when I walked into Nishiki Nursery last fall and saw Rob's Osakazuki I immediately said to myself, "That's it! That's what an Osakazuki is supposed to look like." And what I was tuning into (I think) was the leaf shape. And to my recollection the leaves were about as big as my hand, which I just measured at 8 cm by 16 cm.
     
  17. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    This is a large leaf from an 'Osakazuki' that I've been growing in a pot for maybe 15 years.

    I have 2 plants tagged 'Osakazuki' that have these very lg leaves and 2 others that have the same shape but far smaller like K4's. My observation is that plants that are a little older seem to make larger leaves on the vigorous shoots. The younger trees seem to produce leaves that are consistently smaller.

    This tree had EVERY SINGLE BUD eaten by house sparrows last fall. It has recovered better than I expected. I will not neglect to net it this fall.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Poetry, I want a graftling off of THAT tree! Who did you get that specific tree from and when? Do you ever propagate? Grafts, air layer, heck I'd take a seedling if you'd be willing to talk even about it. BTW, this is definitely different from anything I've ever seen. But it looks just as described in V.III

    Back to the original subject, I talked with another nursery that has Osakazuki Aureum in their inventory. When I called them they said they felt that their batch was mislabeled because they leafed out red and have changed the tags to Osakazuki Rubrum. Also I watched the sun patterns a little more closely on my little guy and it looks like he gets unfiltered sun from 9:00am to 2:00pm.
     
  19. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Winter,

    Absolutley no idea where i got that plant. It does produce some samaras and I'd be happy to send you some if they are still there come fall. If i can deter the birds it should produce a lot of scion wood this year. Perhaps I'll try and graft next winter, if not I'd send you a bit of wood if you can use it.

    I never really thought of it as so special. I had another 'Osakazuki' that routinely leafed out in the most spectacular crimson and lime and held it for a while. I thought maybe i had an 'akame' but later i read that young 'Osakazuki' sometimes exhibits this trait. I gave that tree to my sister so not sure if it still shows those really beautiful and elegant colors.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2009
  20. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Poetry, I would be grateful for anything you would care to send. I plan to attempt my first graftings this fall; I know someone who is going to help me get started.

    It is my understanding that the form of Osakazuki described by Vertrees III is difficult to find. And since yours seems to match, yes, I think this tree is more special than you realized. Which is why I'd like to see you post your pictures in the Osakazuki thread, if you don't mind.

    From reading on the forum and chatting with people this is my understanding of the Osakazuki saga...

    (Those who know better please do correct any misinterpretations that may have arisen from my attempt to simplify and distill)
    Originally two types of Osakazuki came in from Japan - a japonicum and a palmatum. Then, down the road, Taihai, which translates as cup, showed up. And since both Osakazuki and Taihai translate as cup they got confused (see Vertrees for more details). Further there is an akame and a beni form which may have come from Osakazuki or from Taihai but more probably from Taihai. So that's five versions already. Plus all the little Osakazuki seedlings and Taihai seedlings sold as named cultivars over the years. So, in short, there are many, many versions of Osakazuki out there that look dissimilar to what is described by Vertrees.

    And while many of those versions are simply beautiful, I would like for my garden the ginormous leaves that turn brilliant red in the fall. I'm nearsighted and would love something I could see across the yard from inside the house. :)

    Question, does your Osakazuki's samaras look like Swanny's in the Osakazuki thread http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1985&highlight=osakazuki? Two homes ago I had a tree marked Osakazuki that was a lot of fun to watch. I don't remember the spring leaf out, if it was edged in red or not. Maybe. But I do remember the brilliant red samaras. The tree looked like it was coated with berries. The descriptions in V III and V II seem identical and I saw no mention the bright red samaras. So I'm guessing in the true form that maybe they weren't noteworthy?
     
  21. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Interesting info Winter, thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    My Osakazuki is a relatively young plant which has no particular (other than big commercial nursery) provenance. It doesn't at least yet have the giant leaves Poetry shows (those are cool) but they're big and I hope as time goes on they'll reach that stage.

    It does have red samaras, turns the brilliant fall red as expected, the leaves are the right shape, it leafs out red, it is vigorous. In short I have no reason to believe it isn't what it purports to be. (Or at least a fair facsimile, if this cultivar is now a grex or otherwise diluted.)

    Back to an earlier comment, am I the only one who finds it totally aberrant to decide to label plants "Osakazuki rubrum", a totally illegitimate name that has no history or justification? Talk about senseless name proliferation... :(

    -E
     
  23. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    E,

    My understanding is that Osakazuki Rubrum is an old name from before the latinized names were being frowned upon - mr.shep certainly has seen the tree some time ago as evidenced in his post when he stated, "When a nursery in Oregon started selling Osakazuki rubrum years ago...."

    But I do agree and wish that cultivars had pedigrees. And/or provenance, like antiques do. But when I asked one nursery what their source was I was told that was a trade secret and I felt like I had committed a faux pas just for asking. But another nursery was very forthcoming.

    There's got to be a way to deal with all this. Maybe another group has solved a similar problem and has something in place that can be adapted. What do the rose people do and is it successful? I know the other day when I bought a rose the parents names were right on the tag.

    And with regard to seedlings being sold as named cultivars, what about this...

    Let's say, hypothetically, I stumble across a new wonderful maple that everyone agrees is unique and all the other hoops that need to be jumped through get jumped through. I decide to call this maple Acer palmatum 'A' and then I take scion wood from it and graft it. Maybe those graftlings should be called 'A' 0.1 and graftlings from them could be called 'A' 0.2 and so forth. And seedlings from 'A' could be called 'A' 1.0 and graftlings from them could be called 'A' 1.1 and so forth. And then a seedling from 'A' 1.0 could be called 'A' 2.0 and graftlings from it would be 'A' 2.1 and so forth. And seedlings from 'A' 2.0 would be 'A' 3.0 and so forth. You get the picture. Anyone who understood the convention who wanted to discuss 'A' 5.0 versus 'A' 0.5 would know without even seeing the trees that 'A' 5.0 was five generations of seedlings removed from the "true" tree and that 'A' 0.5 was a graft of a graft of a graft of a graft of a graft. I think that's how they handle versions in software.

    Maybe there is already a convention in place to call seedlings of a named cultivar and I just don't know it. Seriously, if I were to grow a bunch of seedlings off of 'A' and wanted to sell them, what would they be?

    Um. Just thought of a hole in my naming convention... what would I call an air layered progeny? Hmm.

    Hey, I'm just a novice private collector. Somebody else figure this out and let me know, OK?

    Maybe air layered progeny would be interchangeable with grafted progeny? I mean, as far as genetic distance from the original tree, does it matter whether it's a grafted descendant or an air layered?
     
  24. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    South Carolina, USA
    I love to see a good noodle cooking thread like this. I first started mulling over these Osakazuki questions heavily this spring after observing two different forms at the nursery that came from the same source. I noticed it during the winter, actually, as the bark color and habit was distinctly different. One form had red tinged brown colored stems, the other had a greenish color. I then monitored them closely in the spring to find that they were definitely distinct.

    I doubt that either of the two forms is a true Osakazuki. The leaves are a good size, but not that big. I suspect that the reddish tinged one might be Osakazuki akame, but I can't say for sure as I haven't seen any of the originals to say for sure. It would be nice to see these trees get sorted out...but I'm afraid this one might be a lost cause...as are some of the dissectums and some of the atropurpureums.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    BTW, I did move this little tree to a spot where it gets the same hours of sun, but afternoon instead of morning. And the smallest leaves reddened up even more.
     

Share This Page