Acer palmatum 'Gwen's Rose Delight' or 'Shirazz'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by arnaut, Jun 2, 2007.

  1. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    The trees I was observing also experienced this upper burning with a lot of sun in nursery conditions (But almost every JM does at our nursery, even under 30 percent shade cloth). On a side note, these trees showed some very vigorous growth through the summer that did not burn much if any. Some shoots were 3 feet long.

    Blamb your tree should adapt a little as it get rooted in and when we get some descent rain (irrigation helps but it just isn't the same IMO), but I think you will see some burn in full sun regardless of age. If I had a spot, I'd move it to get morning sun and afternoon shade. That should bring out enough color without much burning.
     
  2. Hybrid Theory

    Hybrid Theory Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    one thing I didn't mention was the size difference. The one in the shade is about 3.5 to 4 feet wide and about 3 feet tall. The one I had in full sun was only about 2.5 feet wide and maybe 2 feet tall. Both of these trees when I bought them were the same size to, to show the difference in locations.
     
  3. blamb

    blamb Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    Thank you for your responses. I am definitely going to move the tree. I live in Tennessee and will want to replace the Shirazz with something ornamental that will do well in 9 hours of sun a day. Any thoughts? I read that the Tamukeyama does very well in full sun, but was not sure about trying another maple in that spot.
     
  4. Hybrid Theory

    Hybrid Theory Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'


    Theres so many to choose from, what are you looking for to have in that spot? I mean are you looking for something similar to shirazz?
     
  5. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    One form of tamukeyama does indeed hold up pretty well in the south. Unfortunately there is another form that does not hold up well at all. I do know that Green leaf nurseries are carrying the form that holds up well, and if I remember correctly Iseli carries it as well. It has a deeper purple coloration that holds up well (but not as well as Red dragon, and maybe not as well as Crimson queen but they are close). It's lobes are narrow and only slightly dissected (somewhat similar to Inaba shidare but with thinner and less dissected lobes IMO). It's form is a bit wilder than some of the newer varieties. Some would say it isn't as graceful since the limbs don't necessarily always weep, they sometimes grow back up and the form would me more spreading at times. I for one like the architecture as it ages, but it can be a bit weird when young. The other form is more of a rubrum type dissectum that doesn't hold it's color that well, is more dissected, and burns quicker. It doesn't burn as bad as Garnet, but Crimson queen and Inaba shidare don't burn as quickly from my experience.

    Personally though, if you need something that doesn't burn, I would look into some sort of conifer because there will be some burning on almost any JM in Chattanooga.
     
  6. 01876

    01876 Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    Below are some photos I snapped on a 7 foot tall juvenile specimen this early summer (Late June) in a local nursery. First two features her graceful arching branches and the 3rd and 4th each shows the leaf color from full sun to part shade.
    Due the cost, this beauty still remains on the top of my wish list but I am definitely going to get one next spring.

    Ron,
    thanks for the link that answer all my questions about this mysteries beauty.

    Joe
     

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  7. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Acer palmatum 'Shirazz'

    Taken 26th April 2009. It is just leafing out.
    At Westonbirt, The National Arboretum. U.K.
     

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  8. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum Shirazz

    Silver surfer,
    There is already a thread on Shirazz that I initiated some time ago. Apparently it has been renamed to Acer palmatum 'Gwen's Rose Delight' or 'Shirazz'. I suggest the moderator adds your post to the other thread.

    Gomero
     
  9. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum Shirazz

    Thank you Gomero.
    Before posting pic, I checked the alphabetical list of Acer palmatums to see if there were any existing entries. None there. So I started this new thread. I was not aware of the new name. It is still in the RHS Plantfinder 2009-2010 under A.p.Shirazz. I try very hard to use correct names, and spellings!

    Just a suggestion, but would it not be an idea to leave a thread open for Shirazz with a bold note......
    "Now known as Acer palmatum Gwens Rosy Delight, see other thread. Please do not post here."
    Thus preventing others that follow on, from falling into the trap I did. This could apply for all other Acers that have had a name change.

    Please can Daniel just delete my poor single leaf offering.There are far better pics already under the new name.
     
  10. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Best I could do was leave a permanent redirect, but there's no way to say why if someone is reviewing things alphabetically.
     
  11. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    I believe 'Gwen's Rose Delight'(tm Shirazz) and 'Geisha Gone Wild' are the same cultivars with 2
    different names. Novalis trademarked Shirazz and has marketed it strenuously. Since there is
    NO genetic fingerprinting being done on acers in USA, China, Japan or anywhere I can find because
    of lack of funding, I cannot prove such except by careful visual observation of the 2 cultivars.
     
  12. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Thank you Daniel. I think a permanent redirect would be very good and useful. I would never have dreamed that A.p.Shirazz was now called "Gwen's Rose Delight!" Who dreams up these names!!!
     
  13. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    Well the original cultivar name is Gwen's rose delight. It was imported into the US and Trademarked as Shirazz.

    I couldn't be certain but I believe both Shirazz and Geisha gone wild are sports (or partial reversions) of geisha that happened in two different locations. Supposedly Gwen's rose delight was "found" in New Zealand...if I remember correctly. GGW was supposedly found at Bucholtz nursery as a sport of Geisha. I have not seen Geisha or GGW in person, but Shirazz can have foliage that looks like geisha, or GGW, or like a common atropurpureum when it reverts.
     
  14. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    >I couldn't be certain but I believe both Shirazz and Geisha gone wild are sports (or partial reversions) of geisha that happened in two different locations. Supposedly Gwen's rose delight was "found" in New Zealand<

    The present variety arose as a sport from a plant of Acer palmatum `Geisha` (non-patented). This discovery was made at 90 Waitara Rd, Brixton, New Plymouth, New Zealand in the summer of 2001.

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=PP18728.PN.&OS=PN/PP18728&RS=PN/PP18728
     
  15. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Stumbled across this one today, June 5, at the nursery. $110 for this little guy.
     

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  16. Maggie Sproule

    Maggie Sproule Member

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    I have recently acquired a good specimenn of Acer Palmatum Shirazz from B & Q of all places! It was not labelled as such but have had it identified correctly.
     
  17. bford17

    bford17 Member

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    I have noticed that my GRD hasnt been putting on much new growth this year. It leafed out very well in late spring, but I have only noticed like two branches that seem to be new. Also, the leaves are already starting to burn up, and the good ol houston summer hasn't even gotten cranked up yet. I planted this tree last year during late summer (september/oct), so do you think the lack of growth and early leaf burn could be a result of only being in the ground for 7 months?? Any feedback would be great. Also, this tree gets sun from sunrise until about 3:30 to 4pm.
     
  18. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    bford,
    I have Shirazz & Geisha Gone Wild both of which are the same as GRD and I would feel uncomfortable
    having those 2 variegates in that much afternoon sun. I am often in the mid 80's to 90's in the heart of
    summer and I assume Houston might be even more intense. The good thing is these trees haven't read
    the books so best for your tree to tell you but that is a lot of afternoon sun for a variegate but let's see.
     
  19. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    CostCo had this last year, I thought it looked weak. Did not seem to fly off the pallets, probably indicating my impression was shared. I would keep shopping rather than pay $110 for the specimen shown, particularly as the setting makes me think it is being offered by a boutique-style outlet.
     
  20. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    This variety has always struck me as a consumer product rather than a real tree. It seems like an attempt to apply corporate style marketing and branding to a Japanese maple, complete with patents and trademarks, and significantly increased cost to the potential buyer. Saw many of these in mainstream UK outlets a couple of years back and IIRC they had exactly the same label as in Winterhaven's photo above. They weren't quite $110 for a fairly small plant though. Not cheap, but not $110.

    I suspect the marketeers used a focus group to come up with the trade name, Shirazzâ„¢. It is a shame they could only think up something that spells like a dyslexic bottle of red wine rather than the sophisticated vibe they were so obviously hoping for.

    It is no surprise that an American nursery discovered an almost identical mutation, at a very similar time, but without the licensing fees, and brought it to market as 'Geisha Gone Wild'.
     
  21. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    I suspected we would see some slow down with this tree coupled with a transition towards its parent, Geisha. Most of the foliage on mature wood seems to resemble Geisha more, while the most vigorous shoots seem to consistently show the distinct margin of variegation. We saw some burning in hot sun here in SC too. I think morning sun with afternoon shade is best for this one.

    I have no problem with patenting a plant or tree as it gives opportunities for small growers or breeders to make a profit off of their years of hard work. If I spent 25 years crossing and breeding Japanese maples until I got a red Mikawa yatsubusa, I don't think I'd give a cutting to anyone unless I could patent it. Most of the big growers could have ten thousand 3 gallons out in about 5 years time if they pushed hard enough. Why would I bother letting someone else make a fortune off of a plant that I spent half my life working on? I'd just assume keep the darn thing in my yard and have it sawed off at the base when I die. I don't want to sound greedy but there have been a lot of situations where small breeders have outlet a plant to a grower for observation only to find them selling it before the original owner ever had propagated the first plant for sale.

    On the other hand, I'm not sure about patenting such an unstable tree. It seems more like a quick money making scheme than anything. The ridiculous naming system just adds to the confusion. I wish the patent/trade mark people would have allowed for the trade mark name to be the same as the cultivar name. That causes more confusion to a situation that could have had some very positive effects on mislabeling and mix ups between cultivars. Usually people will think twice about growing a patented plant, and they might just do a little research on it before investing in it. They will not think twice on a non patented variety if they can make a quick buck though.
     
  22. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    It certainly didn't start with this introduction.
     
  23. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have nothing against plant patents per se, and certainly nothing against a small operation trying to protect their plant breeding work.

    I also know this is far from the first time a Japanese maple has been patented, but it is the first time I have seen one so aggressively branded, marketed and commodified, at least in the UK. The US prices quoted above for small specimens suggest the protection measures are being used to create a much larger increase in retail price, and corporate profit, over and above the license fees due to the patent holder.
     
  24. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The ones at CostCo last year were much cheaper.
     
  25. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    I agree with you completely there maf. Patent fees are usually between 1 and 3 dollars per plant, and I think the higher end fees usually include the plant label. I could understand if it were a very slow growing variety and the trees were actually several years old, but they are not.
     

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