Acer palmatum "Crippsii"

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Silver surfer, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Please see following posts. This would seem to be Acer palmatum........?

    Planted in November 2000, this Acer seems to be an upright grower. The leaves have a curious curled edge. In autumn it turns from green to golden yellow.It is growing in dappled shade.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  2. nelran

    nelran Active Member

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    Fantastic cultivar. I never read about if before, I like the colors and form. Very nice Luddite.

    Nelson
     
  3. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Wow that's a splendid plant Luddite.

    Doesn't resemble the lack luster description in Maples of the World at all
     
  4. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Luddite, nice photos and tree, also growing one purchased as 'Crippsii' here, believe it came from Duncan and Davies . It's about 4 m. high {12' H}, larger than the description of 'Crippsii' in "Maples of the World''. Actually mine seems to match the description given by Vertrees and van Gelderen of 'Okushimo'. Hillier mentions 'Crippsii' as having bronze-red leaves finely cut into grasslike segments and a plant of weak constitution, not like the plant growing here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  5. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Hi chimera, when we bought this tree and got it home, we read up about it to see how big it would grow. In Hilliers the description was as you say, it was not in our edition of Vertree. So, I wrote a letter to the growers.... a New Zealand company.
    (Many of the lovely Acers found in garden centers in Britain come from this grower, they are always very strong,healthy and of a good shape).
    A reply came back assuring me that it was correctly named, they enclosed a photocopy from "Maples for Gardens" by the van Gelderens.The picture and description fitted our plant.
    Since then we have seen Acer p Crippsii growing in Hilliers excellent garden in Hampshire. A tiny, young specimen.... which looked nothing like our tree!!!!
    Who do you believe?! Buying accurately named varieties can be a bit of a lottery.

    Futher reading it certainly looks as if you are right. Acer p.Okushimo seems to fit this plant.
    Now how do I delete this whole thread... before it causes more confusion? Daniel HELP!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  6. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi luddite, your post seems quite informative, helpful, and interesting to me , thank you. It seems to confirm that our trees likely both came from the same grower, Duncan and Davies in New Zealand. I have been very happy with their trees, but not sure if they are still in business. Esveld lists 'Crippsii' here http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/a/acpcri.htm and 'Okushimo' here http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/a/acpoku.htm so not sure what to think ? Vertrees mentions 'Crispa' as a name that has been used for 'Okushimo'.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  7. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Thanks chimera. I had forgotten the name of the New Zealand grower. Never imagined that in Canada you might have also got your tree from N.Z. Probably from the same company! I assumed that Duncan and Davies was local to you...till I googled it!

    I have added a correction at the start of this thread.
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Don't delete the thread. We can always
    have the title changed later when we are
    more certain what this Maple is. There
    are several titles already with wrongly
    named plants in them. The interesting
    scenario should to agree on what those
    plants should be correctly named but
    we have some problems to overcome
    that we may not get complete agreement
    on them. A lot depends on who is selling
    what Maple and by what name they are
    calling it.

    In this case there may very well be
    two different Maples with the same
    name or it may appear they have the
    same name but a little change in the
    spelling may be applied here in that
    one Maple may be Crippsii and the
    other unrelated Maple may have been
    around in a couple of nursery circles
    as being called Crispsi as a made up
    example.

    I believe Esveld has the right Maple
    for Crippsii which looks very much
    like an Okushimo but should be a
    smaller growing plant that is less
    upright and more spreading in its
    growth than Okushimo. Remember
    some of these related Maples have
    7 lobes and some named forms have
    only 5 lobes.

    How about posting a photo or two
    of the Hillier Maple or send me a
    private message whereby I can see
    the photos, as I may know the name
    of it and which nursery source it
    may have come from originally.
    People do not always equate in
    terms that Hillier and others may
    have gotten some of their plants
    from US sources and vice versa.
    I know Don Kleim and Harold
    Hillier shipped plants back and
    forth, sometimes having Fred
    Bergman of Raraflora nursery
    be the go between (intermediate)
    person, in years past.

    Jim
     
  9. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Thank you Jim for taking the time to look at this thread, and to offer to try and solve the confusion over the name Crippsii. We have been back to Hilliers since we first saw their Crippsii, (it was several years ago) but it was no longer in the spot where we had seen it originally, so no pic possible!
    The autumn colour is now at its best for this acer, so inspite of the name issue, thought I would add another pic. I will take more pics of the fresh leaves next year.This acer must be at least 8ft tall already.
     

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  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    What do you remember of the Hillier
    plant? I am aware of the Maple that
    they had as far back in the late 20's.
    Yes indeed the Hillier Maple is not
    the same plant as the one being
    called Crippsii today. Aside from
    the growth habits and overall sizes
    of the Hillier garden tree and yours,
    what other differences do you recall
    from the Hillier Maple and the very
    nice plant you have? How many
    lobes does yours have and how
    many lobes did the Hillier Maple
    have as an example? I recall it
    is written in the Japanese Maples
    books that Okushimo has lobes
    in 7's. How many lobes are there
    on a typical leaf instead - 5 is the
    answer. When does an Okushimo
    yield more than 5 lobes, which flush
    of growth and when will we see some
    leaves with 7 lobes? This is just to
    jog your memory as I know how
    many lobes the Hillier Maple had.
    Did the Hillier Maple have leaves
    with different shapes on the tree?
    Was the Summer new growth the
    same size and shape as the Spring
    growth was and was the late Summer/
    early Fall new growth the same as
    the Spring growth, the same as the
    Summer growth or did the late new
    growth appear in different shapes
    than either with larger sized leaves
    on a dwarf form (yatsubusa) plant?

    Could it be that the Maple that
    resided in the garden was called
    Crippsii at one time and was
    later called something different?
    Or could it be that the newer
    Maple was given the Crippsii
    name not knowing that the
    name already existed for
    another Maple? Here is
    what someone will have to
    work out sometime. If the
    Esveld Maple came from
    Duncan & Davies, where
    did the Duncan & Davies
    Maple come from? It is
    not out of bounds, indeed
    possible that wood taken
    from the Hillier Maple could
    have yielded what is now
    being called Crippsii but
    I think some provenance
    of the new plant must be
    documented for the apparent
    new generation plant to have
    some substance to it. Why,
    because some of us know
    that the Hillier Maple can be
    documented back to the late
    20's and the olden day plant
    and the more recent version
    plant of the same name are
    not the same Maple.

    Jim
     
  11. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hilliers' manual mentions A.p. 'Crippsii' as receiving an "Award of Merit" from the R.H.S. in 1903. Makes one wonder if it may have originated from or been named by Thomas Cripps and Sons of Tunbridge Wells in the 1800s.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I was just going on memory, not
    using a book or a reference to
    guide me with dates. However,
    Crippsii could very well have been
    someone else's plant and cited
    by the Maples of the World book
    as having been attributed to Hillier
    and Sons by virtue of them being
    the first to offer their Maple for
    resale, via a nursery catalog of
    which the catalog and the date
    of it can be documented.


    The point with the current Crippsii
    Maple in this thread is that it seems
    to have already been verified by a
    world renown nursery by the name
    Crippsii. The inherent dilemma is
    that apparently Luddite has seen
    the old Hiller Maple and feels his
    Maple is not the same as the old
    Maple he saw in a garden setting.
    From his photos of his rather choice
    plant I am more than inclined to
    agree with him that his Maple and
    the old Hillier Maple are not the
    same plant.

    The real conundrum is what
    do we do with the variant forms
    of an already named Maple?
    Do we call the Nigrum form of
    Shojo shidare by another name
    or do we continue on and reference
    the newer, variant, form by the old
    and more widely known name -
    Shojo shidare? The people I hung
    around with in Maples would still
    call the Nigrum form of Shojo
    shidare - Shojo shidare but
    would make it a point of telling
    people it is not the older Shojo
    form of that particular Maple.
    Whereas someone else might
    want to give the Nigrum form
    a new name and that I cannot
    go along with, unless it was
    agreed upon by committee,
    rather than by one person
    that wants to give the Maple
    a new name just to sell it
    and command a higher price
    for it due to the novelty of it.

    I know of instances whereby
    wood taken from a specimen
    could yield grafted offspring
    not exactly like the parent
    plant was. It happens, so
    wood taken from a Hillier
    Maple could have led to a
    selected plant that seemed
    different to them but not
    different enough for them
    to give it a whole new name.

    Jim
     
  13. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Really not sure what to think here, suppose even Hilliers' plant could have been mislabeled, but unlikely. Would be interesting to see the RHS description, if there is one, of the A.M. 'Crippsii'. Haven't found one on the RHS website. Hmmm, wonder if any Maple Society members would have more information available to them.
     
  14. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    maybe is one Shisihi gashira?in Italy one maples specialist nursery (Floricoltura Fessia no web site sorry)named Shishi Gashira ,or also named Crippisi;this is + o- write in "maples for the garden" too...
     
  15. ashizuru

    ashizuru Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    This is the AP crippsii I know as shown on Mailliot's web site.






    Website:mailliot-erable.com
     

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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008

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