Acer palmatum 'Beni shigitatsu sawa'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by Elmore, Feb 3, 2004.

  1. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Here is the cultivar Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'. I propagated some of these a few years back and need to find a place in the landscape to plant them so as to evaluate it better. So far I don't think that they do well in the Southeastern United State's heat and humidity. There are many micro-climates down here, where they may do better. They have not held up in containers as well as some other cultivars have. The spring color usually shows more red but these have been in heavy shade. The color of this one in this picture is more like 'Shigitatsu sawa' but the leaf shape tells you that it is not. 'Shigitatsu sawa' is reputed to be a stronger grower than 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' but down here in this region the word is that it doesn't handle the heat as well as 'Aka...'. This photo was made in May 2002.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2004
  2. That plant looks good to me
    I have just bought a new shigitatsu sawa (planted last September) so I am looking forward to it this spring. I love the leaf. I am told that 'aka' SS is a most beautiful plant. If they don't grow well for you send a few over this direction :)
     
  3. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I just bought a shigitatsu sawa at the end of last year (planted in September) and I am looking forward to it this season. I love the leaf style. I am told the aka SS is a beautiful plant. If they don't succeed for you, send a few over this direction :)
     
  4. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Here are some spring photos of a plant that gets a little more sun than Brad's:). This plant gets morning sun with eastern exposure and afternoon shade after about 1pm. It is beginning its 4th spring and second year in the ground.

    The largest leaf photo is from 4/29/04, and the other two are a progression from this year, 4/7 and 4/16/05.

    MJH
     

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  5. Kathpdx

    Kathpdx Member

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    Help with 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Hello...
    I bought the aka s.s. last spring. I'm keeping it in a container until I decide the best spot that it can tolerate (AND I decide I'm not about to go house shopping! I want to KEEP this plant with me!)
    In looking at the pictures and reading as much as I can, I realize that the Aka SS goes through a lot of color changes. HOWEVER ... I'm a little worried. I need to make sure that it isn't screaming out to me for help.
    After purchasing it last year I transplanted it into only a slightly larger container. I had it originally out front in my south facing yard. By the middle of summer I decided it was definitely getting too much sun. Full sun, all day.
    Now I have it in my back yard - still gets morning sun, but is under a pine tree (or is that a fir?) to get mottled shade for the majority of the day.
    Currently the color is very light - yellow w/ greenish tint (and the green veins). With all my reading this color doesn't seem to be an issue. but the leaves don't look very happy. The color is close to that of mjh1676's 4/16 picture.. but the shape is looking a bit pecked at. Withered. Some nibbled or burnt?? Not the full shape that MJH's have. (Wish i had the right words...)
    Should I do some check for pests?
    I fertilized it (Osmocote) 2 or 3 months ago...

    I'm really looking forward to enjoying this beautiful tree develop. I am hoping someone can tell me if I should worry. OR... if I can guardedly worry, but watch for additional signs. ???

    Thanks!!
    Kath
     
  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Hi Kath,

    Well if it makes you fell better, my leaves aren't that shape yet this year and we have passed the oldest picture date up there. Mine are uniformly more deeply divided with more narrow lobes. It is a 4th year tree, year 2 in the ground.

    My tree gets morning sun and has had a nice uniform pinkish rose hue, but in the last few days, some of the red is starting to show near the mid-vein with a little green and white coming through. If it gets enough sun, it will look pretty close to the photo in the Vertrees 3rd edition.

    Mine will get a little ragged around the edges, but not this early in the year, it happens later in summer. I wouldn't worry, you just need to give it shelter from hot wind and sun and adequate mositure. You should get some pink overtones in spring, with the leaf base turning to a greenish white with red overtones in summer. There is a form that does not get the red tones, but only the pink. This form usually has a more palmate shaped leaf. Yours sounds deeply divided so you should expect the red coloration once the right conditions are met. Only time will tell.

    I would not fertilize anymore this year. In veriegates and reticulates, the fertilization will usually diminish these characteristics or increase the growth rates so that things don't look quite right. Mabye a light dose of fertilizer in the spring, say fish emulision, but I would not use osmocote on this maple. A light dose of something water soluable if needed in the spring and that should do it.

    Good luck and I'll get you some more photos in a couple weeks.
    Michael
     
  7. Kathpdx

    Kathpdx Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Michael,
    Thanks! I just found out, after driving up to my maple expert at Tsugawa's in Woodland, WA that the key error of my ways was the Osmocote. DON'T use Osmocote on Maples! Releases too fast, is what I was told.

    I removed the new top layer of the stuff I put on a few days ago, and I guess I'll have to just wait this season out. Hopefully with (educated) careful care, by next year I'll get the results I should.

    Half my leaves look okay, and often 2 healthly leaves on the same stem as 2 sickly leaves. So, maybe this year will be okay, too. When I get my camera fixed.. I'll start snapping & sharing the pics!

    (OH, and I just got Vertrees book! What a delight! I may have just bitten the 'maple bug' big time! Dreaming of MORE!)

    Thanks again.
    Sun is out. Ground is wet. GREAT day to go pull my monster weeds and talk to my new plants!

    Kath
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    The true form of 'Aka Shigitatsu sawa' out of Japan
    is just not seen any more. Most of the truer individuals
    that were grafted in the US have died out or changed
    on us. The old Maple was laden with Verticillium and
    when attempts were made to clean up this plant we
    lost the red (aka) color of it. The is how the saga was
    told to me. The picture shown on page 111 of the
    Vertrees 2nd edition Japanese Maple book and
    a smaller photo of the same photo I was given, in the
    Vertrees/Gregory 3rd edition Japanese Maple
    book page 109 does show what the original Maple
    looked like.

    Select people here and in Oregon tried to reproduce
    that color shown in the books for years and could
    not do it. Having both forms at the nursery we
    called the other form that came about later 'Beni
    shigitatsu sawa'. There are two forms of 'Beni
    shigitatsu sawa', one that has much larger sized
    leaves that has a pink blush to the leaves when the
    Maple first leafs out, then will turn shortly turn to
    green and white and then the newest growth will
    have pink in the mid ribs of the lobes. What is
    absent is the strong rose-pink color in the palm
    of the leaf, nearest the petiole. The other form
    has much smaller leaves and will start out with
    a pink flush to the leaves and will then go to what
    the newest growth on the other form will and then
    will shade to green and white with no pink in it until
    we get a new flush of growth during the Summer
    and then the pink will be seen again. The larger
    leafed form has leaves and lobes over double the
    size of the smaller form. I think PlantExplorer had
    these forms figured out but was not able to see the
    true aka form alive to compare his Maple to. The
    form he shows in the pics are of the standard or
    larger leaved beni form, same as the Maple shown
    in the Esveld and Ganshukutei web sites as 'Aka
    shigitatsu sawa'. I know none of you are ready for this
    but the true form of 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' is not being
    propagated in the US any more to my knowledge. I
    was told Sir Harold Hillier in Jermyns did have the true
    form of aka at one time but I do not know what might
    have happened to his plant. The plant shown in the two
    books referenced is still alive but it may be the only
    one left in the US that is the true form of aka. What
    we all have are one of the two forms of 'Beni shigitatsu
    sawa' instead.

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=642&highlight=Marakumo



    Osmocote is not a problem on Maples as long as we
    do not use too much of it. Even nurseries that say
    they do not use it, in fact do use it as it can be seen
    in their soil mixes. The key is use a half dose once
    a year if need be in the Spring and place it nearest the
    outside of the container, never near the base of the
    trunk of the Maple. A teaspoon per 5 gallon plant in
    a container is ample enough.

    Jim
     
  9. Andre

    Andre Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Jim,

    You seem to have billions of wonderful cultivars in your nursery.

    Is it listed in this topic ?

    If not, can you add it ? I'd love to visit it next time I'll come in California.

    Thank you
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Hi Andre:

    Let me first say that I do appreciate what you are doing
    in this Maple forum. You are asking questions that you
    should ask and you are getting some emotions stirred
    up and honesty that is not all bad and probably is needed.
    There are times, however, that we may not know all of
    the answers to your questions.

    If you go back and read some of my earlier posts and
    a couple of my first threads in this forum you will get
    a better idea as to which nursery I was a horticultural
    consultant for 14 years for. I was never a paid employee
    of that nursery. I had my own work to do around here
    and in Oregon.

    The old Henderson Experimental Gardens Nursery is
    now defunct. A new owner of the nursery is running
    things and has changed the nursery around so much so
    that I just cannot go on the property much any more as
    there are some strong sentiments for how the nursery
    used to be and the somewhat hidden, yet known in the
    right places, importance of that nursery for a variety
    of plants for a number of years. At one time Henderson
    Gardens was the import (I am smiling now but better put
    "bootleg") center for much of the West Coast for select
    plant introductions coming in from Japan starting in the
    early 50's until the mid 80's. There are several arboretums,
    botanical gardens, private and public gardens that were
    given many plants over the years as a result of some of
    those original importations from Japan and from plants
    that came to us from England as well.

    I've been around certain specialty plants for a long while.
    I just wish that some people would take into consideration
    I am not trying to sell plants, nor am I representing someone
    trying to sell plants and I surely am not trying to promote me
    online. I have enough to worry about already.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  11. Andre

    Andre Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Thank you Jim, I appreciate that coming from you !

    I went through your old post and I guess you were consultant in a tree nursery in Fresno, California.

    But if this one has changed, what is the nursery (specialized in maple) that you would recommend to visit for "maple addicts" like us ?

    And what do you think of those listed in the other topic ?

    Andre

    Thank you
     
  12. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Hi Jim,

    Just when I though I had it, the history of things caught me off guard. I had not realized that both forms we had were the Beni forms. I had learned to recognize the European form, but I had not realized the narrow-leafed form we had was also Beni.

    I took some shots of mine progressing, and it is doubtful that it would ever achieve the red shown in the 3rd edition photo. I can see how the wishful thinking might have gone for those in the past. I am getting some deep pink at the leaf base that should intensify a little more, but not a great deal.

    Attached are one, a photo of the oldest and largest leaves with the deep pink at that leaf base (the leaves are still relatively small), a photo of leaves in the second flush of growth, and leaves on the inside of the tree on the oldest wood (these are the smallest and only show green and white coloration). I had no direct sunlight to work with this evening, so just some low ambient light, no flash, today 5/2/05.

    Thanks Jim!
    Michael
     

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  13. apparker1

    apparker1 Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    I'd like to jump in on this thread if you don't mind. I have been eyeing 2 Aka Shigitatsu Sawa maples for about a week now at a local nursery. They are completely different. One is about chest high growing upright with mostly green leaves that have very minor pink color., if any.. some smaller branches are almost all pink. The leaves are flat like normal maple leaves. Another plant aka SS is only about waist high with an almost weeping shape, and all of the leaves have been an orangish-pink for weeks. The leaves of this tree are smaller and crumpled looking. Are these 2 different types of trees? I really like the smaller tree because of the color, size of the leaves and general shape, but I'm wondering if each tree was just brought from a different part of the country and therefore in different cycles of development. I'm going to go to the nursery today and take some pictures which I'll post later, but if someone can tell me the difference between these 2 trees (if any) I'll buy one today while I'm there. Do you know the general mature height and shape of these trees? I've been trying to find a picture of them at maturity but I can't find one online.

    TIA
     
  14. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    TIA

    Use this link:
    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/ex/acpass.htm

    Under the weight of new growth, many of the shurb-like maples can appear to "weep" when young. I won't gess as to either of the trees you saw, but if you post pictures that would help.

    I would buy the tree you like and then we can figure it out later. I suspect the larger tree is more likely to Aka, but that is not so important if you like the other one more. A similar culitvar that can get some orange-pink color is Peaches and Cream, but typically it does not hold its orange color for that long.

    Michael
     
  15. apparker1

    apparker1 Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    that's a great page... I see both varieties of trees on the page.

    The taller, less branchy green-leafed tree looks like the first pic, while the smaller, tree with more branches has leaves like the second pic. Are they just different seasons of the same tree or different sub-types?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2010
  16. apparker1

    apparker1 Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Ok, here's the pics from the 2 trees. The first 2 are the taller tree with green/pink leaves and the other is the orangish-pink smaller tree and their respective leaves.

    On a side note, the 5th pic is of a large crimson (tallest tree in back) and a medium garnet (left side of pic) for sale for $135... if you had a good place for one of these, which would you choose? How big does each get?
     

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  17. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    TIA

    For the trees you have posted pictures of, I would by the Aka that has the better color, that means the one you have pictured second in the last set of photos, or the 2nd Esveld Photo. I tried to decide if one had better form or not, but they look about the same. I would inspect the trunk near the graft unions to make sure the lower trunk areas look healthy. They both look like nice trees.

    As for the Garnet and Crimson Queen, I would pick the one that best suites your planting site. Both are nice cultivars. I like the CC in the back as it has a taller more upward arching form that will allow you so expose the branching as it ages. As long as the form is appealing and the site fits, I like unusally shaped dissectums with interesting trunk growth.

    Hope that helps. Nicely done with the photos and expanations as it made it very easy to see what you are facing.

    Take care,
    Michael
     
  18. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Just to add to our understanding of this cultivar, these are pictures are of a plant grafted and grown in the UK. Still different.
    Regards
     

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  19. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Since the thread is void of fall color, I thought I would add just one: 11/10/05.

    These are the second growth leaves as all of the spring set was lost to dessication earlier in the season. The shape is a bit irregular, but the fall color is accurate.

    MJH
     

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  20. jhayes5032

    jhayes5032 Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Aka is a great tree in both spring and fall
     

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  21. silver_creek

    silver_creek Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Spring foliage on our Aka shigatatsu Sawa. This tree is in full sun (Pacific Northwest) and gets beautiful fall color.
     

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  22. yweride

    yweride Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Close up of leaves, taken feb 25.
     

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  23. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    Reopening this thread.

    Going back to the statements by Mr. Shep
    If I look at the pics shown by Silver Vista, and to my own 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' this spring, they look pretty much like the picture in the Vertrees book. So, I really don't know what I have.

    Gomero
     

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  24. mapledia

    mapledia Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    This is my Aka Shigatatsu Sawa showing red in the palm of the leaf, a subject of some consternation in prior posts. Have faith. Some are still out there.
     

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  25. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa'

    5 or 6 year old potted plant 4/28/07 philadelphia, pa. Sheltered with very little direct sun.
     

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