I saw a young plant labelled as such in a nursery today, told me it was an imroved (less dieback prone) Coral Bark (Sango Kaku), anyone heard of or tried this variety?
Red Bark? I have not heard of that one yet but I bet a lot of people have never heard of 'Edgewood's Golden'. I speak to people, in the wonderland of Japanese Maples, Oregon and I have yet to meet anyone who has heard of that cultivar. Red Bark may just be a corruption of the common name often given to 'Sango kaku', Coral Bark. It might be a mis-interpretation of 'Red Wood', another red-stemed cultivar. I worked at a nursery where certain employees would tag and refer to Metasequoia glyptostroboides as "Red Dawnwood". Many junipers were called "Jennifers" or "Jupiters". A customer and I got a kick out of the azaleas tagged "George Lindsay Taylor". Probably a cross between "Goober" and "Andy". We were looking for other azaleas in the "Mayberry RFD" series. The customer couldn't stop laughing. Although I was a little embarrassed, I too thought it hilarious.
my mistake, I typ-oed when I put the subject in , it was "Red Wood" now that I think of it, thanks Elmore. as for the name game, my personal favorite at the nursery is "rhodadendrums" :)
Elmore: The misnaming of plants is not restricted to Oregon as you well know, it happens everywhere. I know of a nursery that I have visited a lot and when I see Maples misnamed I always ask myself where did this first happen? I've seen Ezo nishiki on the tags and did a double take to see if the plant was Yezo nishiki instead and it was not. I've seen plants with tags Vitifolium and I have said a loud when I saw them, nope. I've bought a tagged Shojo nomura from the above nursery that was Utsu semi instead (green as opposed to red leaves). It becomes a mess when the owner tells me that the wood in some cases used for grafting must have been marked wrong, so we spent a day trying to get the plants tags all worked out and things were okay until another grower that I know came into the nursery and said that Maple with the green leaves marked Utsu semi is Shojo nomura as I have one of those. When that happens it makes one wonder who started all of this? The Sango kaku, Red Wood, Corallinum, Red Bark and Japanese Sunrise names are all messed up in my mind as I've seen the name Red Bark also used in the nursery trade. The problem is and always has been are the newly named plants different enough to justify being named in the first place? To be honest I've not seen the true Japanese form of Sango kaku in the nursery trade here in California or elsewhere. So with that in mind what should the industry standard Sango kaku's be called then? Most of what I've seen are probably Beni kawa's rather than Sango kaku as only the young twigs on the Japanese form of Sango kaku are red and they do not stay red for very long. The true color of the bark is coral and when you see the variegation in the leaves you can bet you will lose the plant relatively soon. It happened to me just like they did when they died for Don and a few others I know that had the real thing for Sango kaku. In that respect it may not be all that bad that the nursery trade plant is such a stronger grower but those plants are not Sango kaku but what else do we call them when they probably are but may not be true Beni kawa's to other people either? Jim
Hi Elmore: My last post was not directed at you per say. The questions asked were "open" questions, something for others to "chew on" as the answers most certainly are not as simple as one may think to try to answer. I do not have many of the answers in Maples as I just go along with what others have told me, what I've learned on my own and how things are played out in the nursery world. I do know that the original form of Corallinum is not even close to being considered to be a Sango kaku but I've also seen Maples with that Corallinum name that were grossly misnamed also. The problem with "chasing names" and most of us have done it is, are the plants what they are supposed to be? That quandary is something we may indeed have to figure out on our own or have some outside help. The Maple books as great a tool as they are do not and cannot tell us all of the answers, we have to apply some thinking on our own and even then we may not be altogether correct. There are issues that have plagued Maples since day one of their importations to the US and elsewhere and going to Japan to sort out what is what and why does not always offer a clear cut solution for us. As an example, Sagara nishiki in Japan looks a lot different than our forms here. Your form may look different at various times of the year than mine does and someone in Oregon's may look a lot different than mine does and my form came out of Oregon. Yet, they all may very well be Sagara nishki. One of the toughest areas for all of us and no one is an expert in this regard, is when we see someone else's Maples for the first time. Chances are we are going to be wrong more often than we will be right in our identifications of other's Maples. Jim
Two small comments: Acer palmatum 'Red Wood' is listed in the RHS Plant Finder as being a "new" cultivar from this year. This means that the name has been published somewhere and the RHS has deemed fit to accept it. This leads into the morass of plant names that was alluded to in Plant names without authors | UBC Botanical Garden Forums vis a vis cultivated names. Secondly, what Jim has illustrated as a problem with maple cultivars is evident in many, many other groups as well. A Google search for Acer palmatum 'Red Wood'
Hi Daniel: I know that most people have not heard of the form of Sango kaku that only a few of us have seen. I lost my plant after 20 years in the ground last year. I've seen the same form in Kyoto so I know it exists in Japan and I never did doubt what Mr. Don Kleim told me about his form. Then again I knew of his plant for many years. I know of just a select few others that had the plant here in California and they also lost their plants soon after seeing its peak coloring. Another Maple in which we almost have to kill it to see its best color is Beni shidare variegated. I love that plant but I cannot grow it as I already know its life expectancy for me is quite limited if I want to see it in all of its glory. The coloration is stunning but there is a price to pay for seeing it that way. I have not seen Red Wood but I did know about it through the 3rd Edition Japanese Maple book. No need for me to add anything about the RHS, you know what that appellation means better than I do. The "Red Bark" that I've seen is just an industry standard "Sango kaku" in my mind as there was no discernible difference between the ones I saw and a leading growers Sango kaku's which were located right next to the so-called Red Barks in the Oregon nursery. Thank you for your input. Jim
sango kaku life span ? Greetings, Having had the bug for years and not really acting on it, the time has come to indulge myself with Japanese Maples. A prime mover for this was buying a house last summer that has what I believe to be a ACER palmatum Red Filigree Lace in a very neglected state. After I finish this post I am going to wander over to the Maple Society web site looking for a book or two to educate myself about how to nurse this beauty back to health. But to the point of my post, and the point in this thread that prompted me to join and chime in is the mentions of short life spans for Sango kakus. Oh my! We just bought two little ones from the local, reasonably respectable nursery chain about a month ago. They both leafed out almost immediately. However, one is looking stressed after looking really good for a few weeks. We repotted it yesterday but it was not pot bound at all. So, speaking of books and life spans, where can I find some good information about the life spans of the various specimes? We are planning a garden with room for perhaps a dozen bigger trees and who knows how many little ones. I do not want to just rush out and buy the first trees that pull on my heart strings, but make some good, educated choices for the long term. regards, -- Jan
Hi Jan: There is not a book currently available that will go into detail in how to treat Maples or restore them back to health. I think this forum can be a great source of information for the growing aspects of Maples that have been omitted from our books (not the authors fault as the growing end is quite diversified and can be dramatically different from area to area. That information has to be learned through time and from experience). Red Filigree has been laden with veriticillium in the plant for a number of years dating back to when William Goddard first had the Maple. Nursing a very weak plant to start with back to health will require a miracle and from what I've seen is not going to happen. I waited 4 years to buy a Red Filigree all because every one that I saw available was "dirty" until John Mitsch started grafting on much cleaner and more vigorous rootstock and cleaned up the plant quite a bit from mine and others point of view. Red Filigree, the true form, is still a rather difficult plant and is not by any means an ideal Maple to grow as we can lose them rather easily still. One area where I messed up is announcing a variegate form of Sango kaku. If you read one of my other posts you will see that the difference between the variegate form and the nursery trade form is that the bark color is the principal difference other than the variegation that comes about when the plant has been weakened by age, due to neglect or because we want to see the variegation come about. No current book mentions the Japanese form of Sango kaku, so I stuck my neck way out there and mentioned it to this forum knowing full well that there is a good chance that not even the members of the Maple Society have seen the true Japanese form of Sango kaku. If what you buy at a nursery looks healthy and appears to be a vigorous plant then do not worry about what I wrote about the life expectancy of the true form of Sango kaku or Beni shidare variegated. Most people have never seen the truest colors for each plant and there I have a distinct advantage but I also have some rough waters to tread as I've seen it and many others have not. Jim
Red Filigree Hi Jan: Before someone comes after me on Red Filigree I must point out that 20+ years ago people were just thankful in keeping their Red Filigree alive. Verticillium Wilt is a subject that few people know much about yet the pathogen is in almost every Maple. Some varieties do not show much ill effects until we've stressed the plant a couple of times and then the plant will shut down and die. Some Maples do not need much of an excuse to die from Verticillium and Red Filigree is one of them. I've seen 300 5 gallon plants and 25 15 gallon Red Filigrees all from one nursery in Oregon dying right in front of another nurseryman's eyes. The plants were not stressed where they were at their new home but they were all going to die when we saw them and they all did within a week. People today do not know what went on in the past with certain Maples and all of the trials and tribulations others went through before we had our plants. Today, when I hear people, even nurserymen, say how vigorous their Red Filigree are, I immediately ask myself, are we talking about the same plant as I've seen some of the very best nursery people in the business lose their Red Filigrees almost at will without a reason other than the plants were dirty. The old Shigitatasu sawas and the Filigrees were also laden with Verticillium, so much so that we expected to lose half of our plants the first year we brought them in from Oregon. The Oregon growers were losing half of their plants also, so it was known in the nursery world that we had to pay a strong price in order to want to have certain varieties of Maples. Since then a few hand picked selections of Filigree and Shigitatasu sawa have come about and it could very well be that the more recent seedling selections have panned out to be much more vigorous growers for us. I do know that the new forms I had come in recently are not what I once had as there are subtle differences in the leaf shapes and slight differences in the coloration that I know them to be different enough from the plants I had 15-20 years ago that I eventually lost just like so many of us. Should your Red Filigree be the plant that I know well enough and still have it is best to not let it get stressed more than once in a season. A stressed Red Filigree will drop its leaves and then leaf buds will soon appear and then new sets of leaves will come about. It does happen with the old Red Filigree that the leaves will drop and no new vegetative leaf buds will form and then die back occurs from the tip of the shoot all the way down the twig and then further down into the branch. Die back is quite common in Red Filigree. All you can do is cut out or snip off the areas that did die back and hope there is new growth to appear. Severe die back can happen at any time with this Maple. An allover die back from the tip of the shoots all the way down the twigs to the branches means your Maple is a goner as it is Verticillium that is plugging up the vascular system and preventing water and nutrient flow. In effect what Verticillium does is choke off the plant and the pathogen causes the plant to in effect "suffocate". Lessons in reality are no fun for any of us but as long as we know what to expect in advance we can make a decision to have the Maple or not knowing we can lose Red Filigree at any given moment. Just keep your plant alive as best as you can as so many others were not successful for a number of years. Jim
Jim, thanks for the detailed reply. Pikes is the big, local nursery chain around Atlanta and the tree in question was most likely bought from them. I have been to the nearest one several times lately... even bought a few Bloodgoods and Sangu kakus there. From what few varieties they sell, I suspect my specimen was sold by them as an Inaba shidare. It has perked up lately with some vigorous watering but it is long overdue for a serious pruning of dead wood. A few not too high res images are at www.saluki.to/garden/ regards, -- Jan
Hi Jan: I feel better your Maple is not a Red Filigree Lace but it does not look quite right for an Inaba shidare either but it could be right after all. The leaf size is what bothers me at the moment for Inaba shidare but with some tender loving care the Maple may soon generate some larger sized leaves soon. From what I can see it looks like a pretty nice plant. I like where you placed that Maple where you did. The Sango kakus are right for industry standards. You did just fine with your selections. Jim
Jim, the leaves do not get much larger than the one shown in my hand. We moved into the house in December 2002 and the tree did not really get any attention last year. It looked pretty well gone and there was other worries with the new to us, 75 year old house to deal with. The leaves start green and turn red quickly. You can still see the green in one of the pictures. The new growth is very soft and fragile. If you have DSL, I put a larger image here: (it's about 200k) http://www.saluki.to/garden/800DSCN0885.jpg The more I think about it, the leaves are finer than the Inaba shindare I saw at Pikes today. I need to print an image and take it with me for another look. The form has more potential than this specimen has been allowed through neglect. I really want to get some cuttings propagated from this one. As the sun gets higher this summer it will get full sun until 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Neglect has been its worst enemy but I suspect it gets too much sun in the summer. I put the Sango kaku pictures up because the one on the left looks like it is wasting away. We repotted it last week. It was not pot bound at all and it is not improving. :( regards, -- Jan
Hi Jan: What we used to do when comparing leaves to one another is to pick two leaves off your plant to bring with you to compare with the nurseries plants. Try to select two older leaves that are common to your plant. Do not pick a leaf that is different in shape from the others. I think your Maple is Crimson Queen, so do compare it to your nurseries dissected Maples. Most nurseries Inaba shidares are not the right plant either so keep that in mind also. It used to be that if I knew where your retail nursery got their Maples that I had a pretty good idea who the wholesale grower was but I've been away from that part of Maples for too long to be any help there now. The only real wholesale grower in our area gets all of his Maples from Oregon as 1 gallons then grows them on and sells them to retailers as 5 gallon and 15 gallon sized plants. Some Maples in one gallons can be rather slow growers. I would have both Sango Kakus in a 5 gallon. What I used to do years ago when I was buying 1 gallon sized plants is that I would, immediately upon their arrival home, pot them up in a 5 gallon size container. I wanted to infuse them with a different potting soil makeup (my own mix) and to also give them some added space for root growth. Also, I wanted to counteract any possible over fertilization problems that may have occurred at the nursery before I got the plant. It is common for slow release Nitrogen to stunt a young plants growth. Many young Maples do not like a lot of Nitrogen. Even minimal amounts of Nitrogen can kill off root hairs of which we will a few weeks later perhaps see the damage to the vegetative shoots and the leaves as a result. A lot of times leaf kill, irregular shaped leaves or even wilting of the leaves is directly related to over fertilization. I never fertilized young Maples with any Nitrogen as I felt my potting soil mix would do a better job for me but nurseries do not always have that luxury. Jim
I spent a long time at Pikes yesterday. All JMs at Pikes in larger than 1 gal had a Monrovia label. The others were not labeled regarding their source. Of the dozens and dozens of specimes available, the only two plants there with leaves I could not comfortably find differences with my sample were very large (8 feet high/wide) that were only labeled "disectum". From a distance trees near the size of mine looked similar enough but up close the leaves were noticeably not quit the same. Most had what I would call thicker, leatherier, sharper cut, more deeply serrated, etc., leaves. Oh well... regards, -- Jan
Hi Jan: I suggest you wait a couple of months and try it again. Most of the Maples you saw were grown in Oregon. It may take a while for them to show their true selves as at first the plants from Oregon do not look even remotely the same as ours do either. There has always been subtle and in some cases definite differences between our forms of Crimson Queen, Tamukeyama, Ever Red, and Inaba shidare and the Oregon forms of those same Maples. Now we wait for environmental conditions to play out and hope we can make a match with yours. Otherwise, you may have a different dissectum and we may be able to track it down a little later. Jim
Red Filigree Lace I have posted a picture of my Red Filigree Lace leaves against my palm for reference to the earlier post. I believe there is a distinct difference in the two setsa of leaves. Swanny
