Acer p. "Red Bark"

Discussion in 'Maples' started by jimmyq, Feb 3, 2004.

  1. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I saw a young plant labelled as such in a nursery today, told me it was an imroved (less dieback prone) Coral Bark (Sango Kaku), anyone heard of or tried this variety?
     
  2. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Red Bark?

    I have not heard of that one yet but I bet a lot of people have never heard of 'Edgewood's Golden'. I speak to people, in the wonderland of Japanese Maples, Oregon and I have yet to meet anyone who has heard of that cultivar. Red Bark may just be a corruption of the common name often given to 'Sango kaku', Coral Bark. It might be a mis-interpretation of 'Red Wood', another red-stemed cultivar. I worked at a nursery where certain employees would tag and refer to Metasequoia glyptostroboides as "Red Dawnwood". Many junipers were called "Jennifers" or "Jupiters". A customer and I got a kick out of the azaleas tagged "George Lindsay Taylor". Probably a cross between "Goober" and "Andy". We were looking for other azaleas in the "Mayberry RFD" series. The customer couldn't stop laughing. Although I was a little embarrassed, I too thought it hilarious.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2004
  3. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    my mistake, I typ-oed when I put the subject in , it was "Red Wood" now that I think of it, thanks Elmore.
    as for the name game, my personal favorite at the nursery is "rhodadendrums"

    :)
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Elmore:

    The misnaming of plants is not restricted to Oregon as you well know,
    it happens everywhere. I know of a nursery that I have visited a lot and
    when I see Maples misnamed I always ask myself where did this first
    happen? I've seen Ezo nishiki on the tags and did a double take to see
    if the plant was Yezo nishiki instead and it was not. I've seen plants with
    tags Vitifolium and I have said a loud when I saw them, nope. I've bought
    a tagged Shojo nomura from the above nursery that was Utsu semi instead
    (green as opposed to red leaves). It becomes a mess when the owner tells
    me that the wood in some cases used for grafting must have been marked
    wrong, so we spent a day trying to get the plants tags all worked out and
    things were okay until another grower that I know came into the nursery
    and said that Maple with the green leaves marked Utsu semi is Shojo
    nomura as I have one of those. When that happens it makes one wonder
    who started all of this?

    The Sango kaku, Red Wood, Corallinum, Red Bark and Japanese
    Sunrise names are all messed up in my mind as I've seen the name
    Red Bark also used in the nursery trade. The problem is and always
    has been are the newly named plants different enough to justify being
    named in the first place? To be honest I've not seen the true Japanese
    form of Sango kaku in the nursery trade here in California or elsewhere.
    So with that in mind what should the industry standard Sango kaku's
    be called then? Most of what I've seen are probably Beni kawa's rather
    than Sango kaku as only the young twigs on the Japanese form of
    Sango kaku are red and they do not stay red for very long. The true
    color of the bark is coral and when you see the variegation in the
    leaves you can bet you will lose the plant relatively soon. It happened
    to me just like they did when they died for Don and a few others I
    know that had the real thing for Sango kaku. In that respect it may
    not be all that bad that the nursery trade plant is such a stronger grower
    but those plants are not Sango kaku but what else do we call them when
    they probably are but may not be true Beni kawa's to other people either?

    Jim
     
  5. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Elmore:

    My last post was not directed at you per say. The questions
    asked were "open" questions, something for others to "chew
    on" as the answers most certainly are not as simple as one
    may think to try to answer. I do not have many of the answers
    in Maples as I just go along with what others have told me, what
    I've learned on my own and how things are played out in the
    nursery world.

    I do know that the original form of Corallinum is not even
    close to being considered to be a Sango kaku but I've also
    seen Maples with that Corallinum name that were grossly
    misnamed also.

    The problem with "chasing names" and most of us have done it
    is, are the plants what they are supposed to be? That quandary is
    something we may indeed have to figure out on our own or have
    some outside help. The Maple books as great a tool as they are
    do not and cannot tell us all of the answers, we have to apply some
    thinking on our own and even then we may not be altogether correct.
    There are issues that have plagued Maples since day one of their
    importations to the US and elsewhere and going to Japan to sort out
    what is what and why does not always offer a clear cut solution for us.
    As an example, Sagara nishiki in Japan looks a lot different than our
    forms here. Your form may look different at various times of the
    year than mine does and someone in Oregon's may look a lot different
    than mine does and my form came out of Oregon. Yet, they all may
    very well be Sagara nishki. One of the toughest areas for all of us and
    no one is an expert in this regard, is when we see someone else's Maples
    for the first time. Chances are we are going to be wrong more often
    than we will be right in our identifications of other's Maples.

    Jim
     
  6. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Two small comments:

    Acer palmatum 'Red Wood' is listed in the RHS Plant Finder as being a "new" cultivar from this year. This means that the name has been published somewhere and the RHS has deemed fit to accept it. This leads into the morass of plant names that was alluded to in Plant names without authors | UBC Botanical Garden Forums vis a vis cultivated names.

    Secondly, what Jim has illustrated as a problem with maple cultivars is evident in many, many other groups as well.

    A Google search for Acer palmatum 'Red Wood'
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2015
  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Daniel:

    I know that most people have not heard of the form of Sango kaku that only a
    few of us have seen. I lost my plant after 20 years in the ground last year. I've
    seen the same form in Kyoto so I know it exists in Japan and I never did doubt
    what Mr. Don Kleim told me about his form. Then again I knew of his plant for
    many years. I know of just a select few others that had the plant here in California
    and they also lost their plants soon after seeing its peak coloring.

    Another Maple in which we almost have to kill it to see its best color is Beni
    shidare variegated. I love that plant but I cannot grow it as I already know its
    life expectancy for me is quite limited if I want to see it in all of its glory. The
    coloration is stunning but there is a price to pay for seeing it that way.

    I have not seen Red Wood but I did know about it through the 3rd Edition Japanese
    Maple book. No need for me to add anything about the RHS, you know what that
    appellation means better than I do.

    The "Red Bark" that I've seen is just an industry standard "Sango kaku" in my mind
    as there was no discernible difference between the ones I saw and a leading growers
    Sango kaku's which were located right next to the so-called Red Barks in the Oregon
    nursery.

    Thank you for your input.

    Jim
     
  8. Klaatu

    Klaatu Member

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    sango kaku life span ?

    Greetings,

    Having had the bug for years and not really acting on it, the time has come to indulge myself with Japanese Maples. A prime mover for this was buying a house last summer that has what I believe to be a ACER palmatum Red Filigree Lace in a very neglected state. After I finish this post I am going to wander over to the Maple Society web site looking for a book or two to educate myself about how to nurse this beauty back to health. But to the point of my post, and the point in this thread that prompted me to join and chime in is the mentions of short life spans for Sango kakus. Oh my! We just bought two little ones from the local, reasonably respectable nursery chain about a month ago. They both leafed out almost immediately. However, one is looking stressed after looking really good for a few weeks. We repotted it yesterday but it was not pot bound at all. So, speaking of books and life spans, where can I find some good information about the life spans of the various specimes? We are planning a garden with room for perhaps a dozen bigger trees and who knows how many little ones. I do not want to just rush out and buy the first trees that pull on my heart strings, but make some good, educated choices for the long term.

    regards,
    -- Jan
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jan:

    There is not a book currently available that will go into
    detail in how to treat Maples or restore them back to
    health. I think this forum can be a great source of
    information for the growing aspects of Maples that have
    been omitted from our books (not the authors fault as the
    growing end is quite diversified and can be dramatically
    different from area to area. That information has to be
    learned through time and from experience).

    Red Filigree has been laden with veriticillium in the plant
    for a number of years dating back to when William Goddard
    first had the Maple. Nursing a very weak plant to start
    with back to health will require a miracle and from what
    I've seen is not going to happen. I waited 4 years to buy a
    Red Filigree all because every one that I saw available was
    "dirty" until John Mitsch started grafting on much cleaner
    and more vigorous rootstock and cleaned up the plant quite
    a bit from mine and others point of view. Red Filigree, the
    true form, is still a rather difficult plant and is not by any
    means an ideal Maple to grow as we can lose them rather
    easily still.

    One area where I messed up is announcing a variegate form
    of Sango kaku. If you read one of my other posts you will
    see that the difference between the variegate form and the
    nursery trade form is that the bark color is the principal
    difference other than the variegation that comes about
    when the plant has been weakened by age, due to neglect
    or because we want to see the variegation come about.
    No current book mentions the Japanese form of Sango
    kaku, so I stuck my neck way out there and mentioned it
    to this forum knowing full well that there is a good chance
    that not even the members of the Maple Society have
    seen the true Japanese form of Sango kaku. If what you
    buy at a nursery looks healthy and appears to be a vigorous
    plant then do not worry about what I wrote about the life
    expectancy of the true form of Sango kaku or Beni shidare
    variegated. Most people have never seen the truest colors
    for each plant and there I have a distinct advantage but I
    also have some rough waters to tread as I've seen it and
    many others have not.

    Jim
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Red Filigree

    Hi Jan:

    Before someone comes after me on Red Filigree I must point out
    that 20+ years ago people were just thankful in keeping their Red
    Filigree alive. Verticillium Wilt is a subject that few people know
    much about yet the pathogen is in almost every Maple. Some varieties
    do not show much ill effects until we've stressed the plant a couple
    of times and then the plant will shut down and die. Some Maples
    do not need much of an excuse to die from Verticillium and Red
    Filigree is one of them. I've seen 300 5 gallon plants and 25 15
    gallon Red Filigrees all from one nursery in Oregon dying right
    in front of another nurseryman's eyes. The plants were not stressed
    where they were at their new home but they were all going to die
    when we saw them and they all did within a week. People today do
    not know what went on in the past with certain Maples and all of the
    trials and tribulations others went through before we had our plants.
    Today, when I hear people, even nurserymen, say how vigorous their
    Red Filigree are, I immediately ask myself, are we talking about the
    same plant as I've seen some of the very best nursery people in the
    business lose their Red Filigrees almost at will without a reason
    other than the plants were dirty. The old Shigitatasu sawas and the
    Filigrees were also laden with Verticillium, so much so that we
    expected to lose half of our plants the first year we brought them in
    from Oregon. The Oregon growers were losing half of their plants
    also, so it was known in the nursery world that we had to pay a strong
    price in order to want to have certain varieties of Maples. Since then
    a few hand picked selections of Filigree and Shigitatasu sawa have come
    about and it could very well be that the more recent seedling selections
    have panned out to be much more vigorous growers for us. I do know
    that the new forms I had come in recently are not what I once had as
    there are subtle differences in the leaf shapes and slight differences in
    the coloration that I know them to be different enough from the plants
    I had 15-20 years ago that I eventually lost just like so many of us.

    Should your Red Filigree be the plant that I know well enough and
    still have it is best to not let it get stressed more than once in a
    season. A stressed Red Filigree will drop its leaves and then leaf
    buds will soon appear and then new sets of leaves will come about.
    It does happen with the old Red Filigree that the leaves will drop
    and no new vegetative leaf buds will form and then die back occurs
    from the tip of the shoot all the way down the twig and then further
    down into the branch. Die back is quite common in Red Filigree.
    All you can do is cut out or snip off the areas that did die back
    and hope there is new growth to appear. Severe die back can
    happen at any time with this Maple. An allover die back from the tip
    of the shoots all the way down the twigs to the branches means your
    Maple is a goner as it is Verticillium that is plugging up the vascular
    system and preventing water and nutrient flow. In effect what Verticillium
    does is choke off the plant and the pathogen causes the plant to in effect
    "suffocate".

    Lessons in reality are no fun for any of us but as long as we know
    what to expect in advance we can make a decision to have the Maple
    or not knowing we can lose Red Filigree at any given moment. Just
    keep your plant alive as best as you can as so many others were not
    successful for a number of years.

    Jim
     
  11. Klaatu

    Klaatu Member

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    Jim, thanks for the detailed reply. Pikes is the big, local nursery chain around Atlanta and the tree in question was most likely bought from them. I have been to the nearest one several times lately... even bought a few Bloodgoods and Sangu kakus there. From what few varieties they sell, I suspect my specimen was sold by them as an Inaba shidare. It has perked up lately with some vigorous watering but it is long overdue for a serious pruning of dead wood. A few not too high res images are at www.saluki.to/garden/

    regards,
    -- Jan
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jan:

    I feel better your Maple is not a Red Filigree Lace but
    it does not look quite right for an Inaba shidare either
    but it could be right after all. The leaf size is what
    bothers me at the moment for Inaba shidare but
    with some tender loving care the Maple may soon
    generate some larger sized leaves soon. From what
    I can see it looks like a pretty nice plant. I like where
    you placed that Maple where you did. The Sango kakus
    are right for industry standards. You did just fine with
    your selections.

    Jim
     
  13. Klaatu

    Klaatu Member

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    Jim, the leaves do not get much larger than the one shown in my hand. We moved into the house in December 2002 and the tree did not really get any attention last year. It looked pretty well gone and there was other worries with the new to us, 75 year old house to deal with. The leaves start green and turn red quickly. You can still see the green in one of the pictures. The new growth is very soft and fragile. If you have DSL, I put a larger image here: (it's about 200k)

    http://www.saluki.to/garden/800DSCN0885.jpg

    The more I think about it, the leaves are finer than the Inaba shindare I saw at Pikes today. I need to print an image and take it with me for another look. The form has more potential than this specimen has been allowed through neglect. I really want to get some cuttings propagated from this one. As the sun gets higher this summer it will get full sun until 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Neglect has been its worst enemy but I suspect it gets too much sun in the summer.

    I put the Sango kaku pictures up because the one on the left looks like it is wasting away. We repotted it last week. It was not pot bound at all and it is not improving. :(

    regards,
    -- Jan
     
  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jan:

    What we used to do when comparing leaves to one
    another is to pick two leaves off your plant to bring
    with you to compare with the nurseries plants. Try
    to select two older leaves that are common to your
    plant. Do not pick a leaf that is different in shape
    from the others.

    I think your Maple is Crimson Queen, so do compare
    it to your nurseries dissected Maples. Most nurseries
    Inaba shidares are not the right plant either so keep
    that in mind also. It used to be that if I knew where
    your retail nursery got their Maples that I had a pretty
    good idea who the wholesale grower was but I've been
    away from that part of Maples for too long to be any
    help there now. The only real wholesale grower in our
    area gets all of his Maples from Oregon as 1 gallons then
    grows them on and sells them to retailers as 5 gallon
    and 15 gallon sized plants.

    Some Maples in one gallons can be rather slow growers.
    I would have both Sango Kakus in a 5 gallon. What I
    used to do years ago when I was buying 1 gallon sized
    plants is that I would, immediately upon their arrival
    home, pot them up in a 5 gallon size container. I wanted
    to infuse them with a different potting soil makeup (my
    own mix) and to also give them some added space for
    root growth. Also, I wanted to counteract any possible
    over fertilization problems that may have occurred at
    the nursery before I got the plant. It is common for
    slow release Nitrogen to stunt a young plants growth.
    Many young Maples do not like a lot of Nitrogen. Even
    minimal amounts of Nitrogen can kill off root hairs of
    which we will a few weeks later perhaps see the damage
    to the vegetative shoots and the leaves as a result. A lot
    of times leaf kill, irregular shaped leaves or even wilting
    of the leaves is directly related to over fertilization. I never
    fertilized young Maples with any Nitrogen as I felt my potting
    soil mix would do a better job for me but nurseries do not
    always have that luxury.

    Jim
     
  15. Klaatu

    Klaatu Member

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    I spent a long time at Pikes yesterday. All JMs at Pikes in larger than 1 gal had a Monrovia label. The others were not labeled regarding their source. Of the dozens and dozens of specimes available, the only two plants there with leaves I could not comfortably find differences with my sample were very large (8 feet high/wide) that were only labeled "disectum". From a distance trees near the size of mine looked similar enough but up close the leaves were noticeably not quit the same. Most had what I would call thicker, leatherier, sharper cut, more deeply serrated, etc., leaves. Oh well...

    regards,
    -- Jan
     
  16. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jan:

    I suggest you wait a couple of months and try it again.
    Most of the Maples you saw were grown in Oregon. It
    may take a while for them to show their true selves as
    at first the plants from Oregon do not look even remotely
    the same as ours do either. There has always been subtle
    and in some cases definite differences between our forms
    of Crimson Queen, Tamukeyama, Ever Red, and Inaba
    shidare and the Oregon forms of those same Maples. Now
    we wait for environmental conditions to play out and hope
    we can make a match with yours. Otherwise, you may have
    a different dissectum and we may be able to track it down a
    little later.

    Jim
     
  17. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Sango kaku

    I'll bet that your 'Sango kaku' were produced locally. Rooted.
     
  18. swanny

    swanny Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Red Filigree Lace

    I have posted a picture of my Red Filigree Lace leaves against my palm for reference to the earlier post. I believe there is a distinct difference in the two setsa of leaves.

    Swanny
     

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