Identification: A. platanoides 'Dissectum'?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by wcutler, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    This expands on my question in this Acer saccharinum f. laciniatum thread, in which I thought I found another Vancouver location, but then discovered that that location (7th and Prince Albert) is supposed to have A. platanoides 'Dissectum'. Here are four trees at that location. I wouldn't have thought these were all the same, though they do all seem to have long red pedicels, which I think would indicate A. planatoides. Are any of them not A. platanoides 'Dissectum'? If they're not, can you tell what they are?

    I thought I would be catching autumn colours on them, but only one is coloured up.

    Tree 1
    20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple1_Cutler_P1160842.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple1_Cutler_P1160843.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple1_Cutler_P1160844.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple1_Cutler_P1160847.jpg
    [Edited 2011nov4]Adding a few more photos:
    20111103_7thPrAlbert_Tree1_Cutler_P1170155.jpg 20111103_7thPrAlbert_Tree1_Cutler_P1170156.jpg 20111103_7thPrAlbert_Tree1_Cutler_P1170160.jpg

    Tree 2 - looks like Tree 1 to me
    20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple2_Cutler_P1160849.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple2_Cutler_P1160851.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple2_Cutler_P1160853.jpg

    Tree 3 - this is the one I thought was A. saccharinum f. laciniatum; now I think it looks different from the first two, and might really be what I thought it was
    20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple3_Cutler_P1160854.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple3_Cutler_P1160855.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple3_Cutler_P1160856.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple3_Cutler_P1160857.jpg
    [Edited 2011nov4]Adding a photo:
    20111103_7thPrAlbert_Tree3_Cutler_P1170163.jpg

    Tree 4 - this is a private tree, and it me, it looks like some third type of maple
    20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple4_Cutler_P1160860.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple4_Cutler_P1160861.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple4_Cutler_P1160862.jpg 20111029_7thPrAlbert_Maple4_Cutler_P1160864.jpg
    [Edited 2011nov4]Adding a photo:
    20111103_7thPrAlbert_Tree4_Cutler_P1170168.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  2. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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  3. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Oh sure, get me really confused!

    Alex, I should be grateful - you're the only person who has replied. But first of all, the leaves on the three photos on the page you've linked to all look different to me. About the second one, I'm sure I read recently here about something that looks like that, that it should be a separate Acer species. I can't find that now.

    And also, I know the name Acer platanoides 'Laciniatum' because I started a post about Acer platanoides 'Crispum' which looks a bit like the third photo at your link but is barely lobed, which is or is not a synonym for A. platanoides 'Laciniatum'.

    I do think it looks a lot like the first photo.

    Between A. platanoides and A. saccharinum, the flowers and samaras at least should look very different. I'll be back with those photos in the spring.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  4. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Wendy,

    I have a really hard time IDing trees from pictures, but here goes.

    You can tell saccharinum from platanoides because the latter, like all trees in the section Platanoidea exudes a white latex from the petioles when you break them. Saccharinum is in section Rubra and doesn't have this characteristic. A look at the flowers would tell you a lot also.

    My guess is that the first two are A. saccharinum, the leaves look within normal variation to me. I think you've got #3 right. For me #4 resembles a sugar maple cultivar, A. saccharum 'Brocade'.

    Meanwhile, keep up the good work! I always enjoy your posts.

    -E
     
  5. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Emery. I've added a few photos to the first posting, including one of a leaf petiole just after I broke it. For A. platanoides, does every petiole exude the latex when it's broken? Does my last photo for Tree 1 demonstrate that it's not platanoides? Or does it have to be a leaf just plucked from the tree? I didn't see any white latex from the petiole of any of those trees (but I only got one in focus).

    [Edited]Another point I meant to make/question I meant to ask: the photo I added to Tree 3 shows the underside of the leaves, which are much lighter than the fronts. From Straley (Trees of Vancouver): "[A. platanoides leaves] are more or less the same shade of green on both sides, a characteristic that can be used to distinguish its leaves from those of some other similar maples...". Does that apply to the cultivars as well, so does this photo demonstrate that this is not A. platanoides 'Dissectum' and also not A. platanoides 'Laciniatum'?

    [Edited again] I'm having trouble remembering all my points. I'm so surprised that Tree 4 would be an A. saccharum cultivar (yes, I see several photos of that on the internet, I do believe you), that I can't believe I'm even trying to figure this out. I think for saccharum, I'll just work on identifying the species, which is still pretty much of a mystery for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  6. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Trees 1, 2, 3 are all Silver Maple A. saccharinum - note the whitish undersides to the leaves, slender shoots, and bark scaly in vertical strips. Norway Maple has the leaves green underneath, thicker shoots, and finely ridged, non-scaly bark. The first two look like normal wild-type, the 3rd a cut-leaf cultivar.

    Tree 4 - not sure; could be a cut-leaf Norway Maple A. platanoides, but somehow doesn't look quite right.

    This character isn't easily visible by this time of year when the leaves are dying off - it is far more obvious in spring and summer.
     
  7. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Wendy these are pics of our Acer platanoides Dissectum, so that you can see what it looks like.
    I believe they are correctly named.
     

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  8. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Michael and Silver Surfer. I'll still try to get back in the spring, but these seem pretty clearly not to be Norways.
     
  9. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Wendy,

    I certainly agree with Michael that the latex would be hard to spot this late in the season. It's mostly obvious with pretty lush growth.

    I do think that there can be a variation with platanoides leaves, top versus underside, in some of the cultivars. Certainly this is true with red ones like Crimson King, but also this year I've noticed with Holvata the underside is much duller and at the same time a lighter shade than the top.

    The platanoides 'Dissectum' is very pretty, I shall have to plant one! :)

    cheers,

    -E
     
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Emery. I was afraid it wouldn't be that simple. Well, flowers and samaras will tell. I've set a reminder.
    +*+
    Wendy
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are pictures of flowers/samaras. More careful reading of one very short sentence tells me that two of these trees "on the corner" are supposed to be A. platanoides 'Dissectum'. Straley doesn't say which two, but it doesn't seem to be the two trees I thought looked alike from the leaves. It's too bad that the first tree's samaras are so high up, on a windy day too. The leaves are in the first posting.

    Tree 1
    20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree1_Cutler_P1210259.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree1_Cutler_P1210264.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree1_Cutler_P1210265.JPG 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree1_Cutler_P1210269.jpg

    Tree 2, which I originally said looked like tree 1, but now I think it doesn't. Doesn't this look more like A. saccharinum?
    20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree2_Cutler_P1210271c2.JPG 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree2_Cutler_P1210271c3.JPG 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree2_Cutler_P1210275.jpg

    Tree 3 - if I could really tell what tree 1 looked like, I might think this looked like it, but the leaves on this one looked the most distinct. Here was one I could touch, but I forgot to see if there was latex.
    20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree3_Cutler_P1210276.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree3_Cutler_P1210284.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree3_Cutler_P1210293.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree3_Cutler_P1210295.jpg 20120416_7thPrinceAlbert_AcerTree3_Cutler_P1210296.jpg

    Tree four is either something very late or has died.
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Still all Acer saccharinum.
     

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