2 unknown imposters

Discussion in 'Maples' started by AcerBob, Dec 14, 2003.

  1. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    Hi all. My boss and I each have a JM that we bought (at different places) which had no name tags, this is probably why we got such good deals on them. There are 4 pics in attachments below. 2 pics are of an actual tree(mine) and two of just the leaves. The pic with the larger leaves belong to the 2 pics of the actual trees. Any help in identification of these two trees would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

    pic 006,002,003 are of one tree
    pic 007 is another tree

    Both of these trees have deep red leaves in the spring and fall, and green leaves during the summer.
     

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  2. stephen2602

    stephen2602 Member

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    Hi Bob,

    You cant see if the trees are grafted in the pics you posted and if not, then who knows what they are other than hybrid versions of the Palmatum family.. The tree with the bigger leaves looks very similiar to a tree I have been trying to identify for sometime. Have a look at the pics at:

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1074

    The laceleaf is quite a pretty one but I cant work out if the colour is red or orange red. I have a generic palmatum in the garden next door and I grabbed some seeds and a few of them turned out like your dissectum some being red and the others green. It almost looks like a Viridis but it has green leaves until Autumn.

    So all in all, I am not much help am I???

    Cheers

    Stephen
     
  3. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    2 imposters

    Thanks Stephen, Yes both trees are grafted, and have red leaves in the pics posted here (hard to tell though). The smaller leaved variety is a "witches broom" of some variety. Thanks for the imput. Bob
     
  4. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    my guess

    For what it's worth, without too much additional research, the dissectum resembles 'Tamukeyama'. I base this guess on the leaf segments dissection. The shape of the cuts on the leaf segments. As for the color, these could be new leaves, which as you know don't appear either green or purple but mostly red. The palmate form resembles, to me, a 'Trompenburg'. I also base this guess on the amount of leaf that is serrated. 'Trompenburg' is known for a sort of convex... or curved down leaf segment but here in the south there is speculation that this unique feature does not show up as prominatly as on trees growing in a cooler climate. To me it resembles some that I have. 'Suminagashi' is a good match, Whis4ey. Then too, it could be a sexually propagated atropurpureum. Come spring I may look at my collection and have other ideas in this regard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  5. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I don't think the leaf is pronounced enough to be Trompenberg
    THAT has a very distinctive leaf all of its own
    It looks to me very like my Suminagashi
    Just a thought ......
     
  6. stephen2602

    stephen2602 Member

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    I don't think it is a Tamukeyama as I have one and its leaves are quite large and better defined. The Tamukeyama is also very purple compared to other red varities such as the Garnet which tends to have a fair amount of quite dark green under the higher the higher branches and yes it gets a fair amount of sun so the greening probably occurs naturally.

    So the mystery continues...?

    Regards

    Stephen
     
  7. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Witchs Brooms

    Witches Brooms usually have a stubbed - off (short) center lobe. Your pictured leaves are not likely from a Witchs Broom. Attached are pictures of two Witchs Brooms, 'Vic's Broom' and 'Shaina'. Elmore
     

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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  8. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Possible ID

    Okay the serrated sections of the leaf really don't match up to a 'Trompenberg'. It does look a lot like a 'Beni kagami'. Once again 'Suminagashi' is a good guess and is likely more available out in the trade. As for the laceleaf, perhaps a 'Brocade'. Attached is a picture of a small 'Trompenburg', newly in leaf. As the season progresses down here in the Southeast, the leaves of 'Trompenburg' are not so pronounced in their unique form. I suspect that in cooler climates, 'Trompenburg' retains its leaf shape better then it will in our heat and humidity. Also attached is an image of 'Brocade'.
     

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  9. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    It is a lot cooler here in Ireland. Here 'Trompenburg' leaves 'curl' making it a very distinctive and strangely attractive palmatum
    I have no experience of Beni Kagami so can't comment. I did photograph leaves from a number of my acers last year, and suminigashi and inazuma are similar to that shown here
    I have even more difficulty myself with the dissected maples .... the problem is that the colours alter with climate and shade and soil etc....it is easier to compare specimins within one's own garden. To try to identify a dissected plant from a photograph (even when told the exact time of year of the pic) is way beyond my feeble abilities :)
     
  10. May be Burgendy Lace

    The upright growing cultivar looks like Burgundy Lace to me. This one is readily available in the trade, so it could be it..
     
  11. May be Burgundy Lace 2

    Sorry, as for the dissectum, it's very hard to imposible to distiguish the red cutleafs based solely on leaf photos. Could you post a photograph of its growth habit. Tamukeyama, Inaba Shidare, Garnet and Crimson Queen all have very discernable growth habits, especially when seen adjacent to one another. There are other tricks too:
    Inaba Shidare: Very pendulous / holds its dead leave late into the fall and winter.
    Nigra/Ever Red: Has fuzzy white hairs on the emerging leaves in the spring.
    Red Select: Very pendulous, branches drop immediately from a high graft.
    Garnet: broader than the other red dissects.
    Tamukeyama: The best overall. Holds dark red color through summer and doesn't burn. Has nice broad mushroom growth, but not as broad as garnet. Nice dark red wood.
    Crimson Queen: Gets very twiggy and has yellowish 2nd and 3rd year growth. Old wood is kinda ugly too with grey patching.
    Red Dragon: Nice dark red leaves, but not hardy (avoid) and is suceptable to sun burn, frost burn, and sudden death syndrome.
    Send the photos, hope my notes help.
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    What color are the petioles on the deeply divided Maple?
     
  13. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    Hey guys. Thanks for all the input on these 2 trees. The larger of these trees I dont think are Tamukeyama, Brocade, or Burgundy Lace. I think either Sumi nagashi or Beni kagami. Every leaf this spring has 9 lobes, all of them, and the color is a deep reddish-purple with the lobes hanging down. The leaves also have a very fine white "hair" (for lack of a better term) on the outward side.
    I have not seen the smaller dissectum this spring but will make a point to post a pic of each within a couple of days.
    Thanks for the clarification of a witches-broom, Brad. This is why I enjoy posting on this forum, I always learn a lot from all you guys.
    Thanks Bob
     

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