Grapefruit Tree Help...please

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by sizenson, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Hello! Please help me save this grapefruit tree! She is a treasured family member that my husband grew from a seed when he was in second grade. (a LONG time ago!!) I can't face my mother-in-law if this plant goes...talk about pressure!

    I haven't moved the tree, so I know that the space is fine. Plenty of light, air and water when necessary (sometimes with supportive food in water) but she is beginning to die.

    I am seeing lots of leaves having brown spots and then they fall off. I am not seeing any new growth and am worried that we are losing more than growing. About 8 months ago there was such luch growth that my father and I had to rig a trellis behind the tree so that we could carefully tie (with sponge material around the branches) some of the branches up so that they wouldn't continue to get bumped. I am worried that we disturbed the tree and now it is dying.

    HELP!

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    Susan
     
  2. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    Need more info to help-- Pictures would help identify the problem.

    What has changed in the care of the tree? Was the recent weather wetter or drier than normal?
     
  3. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Thanks! It's good to know that help is possibly available. So...care of the plant. Nothing changed with the weather around it. We are in Ohio so the weather changes every 15 minutes. We did do the usual air conditioning when summer came, but she had been through that year after year and the sun that comes through the windows would have been warm enough.

    No change in watering procedure (slow and steady) and only when necessary. The only thing I can think of would be some sort of bug infestation. The tree is near our back patio door which is often open to let the dogs roam and we do back up to a decently wooded back...so bugs?

    Can the tree get spots from too much food (miracle grow) or bad chemical water? It's the same water that I have always used but I am pulling straws.

    So I can take a picture but how do you attach it to this post? (Not too swift with computers...and grapefruit trees either!)

    THANKS! I really appreciate any help!

    Susan
     
  4. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    To post pictures follow the instructions in the link on the right side of this window (should be 3rd link down).

    So it is an indoor container plant--then weather would not have much affect.

    Miracle grow or water with high salt content can cause brown spots on leaves, they would form where the water would pool and then dry. They would be like a burn (not black but like sunburn).

    How long has it been since repotting? Soil can degrade and become soggy holding water longer and causing root rot, but that would not tend to cause spots-- wilt and leaf drop would be more likely symptoms.

    So your suspicion about bugs becomes more likely. Aphids you could probably see on the bottom of the leaves--that leaves spider mites and/or scale as most likely culprits. Since it is a plant that will be in the house and you could spray with a horticultural oil. It will kill a wide variety of bugs and is non toxic-- A soap solution would also get many bugs. There is also a pesticide --spinosad is the active ingredient-- that would kill any bugs and is relatively non-toxic, but you would want to take the tree outside to spray it. It is sold under a variety of product names-- one I use is by Fertilome -with a long name-- I can only remember the name has "borer" in it.

    -- Skeet
     
  5. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Thanks for the suggestions. It has been a while since repotting so I think that our first line of action will be to re-pot. Do you know if we can just change the soil and keep the same sized container? I have to mention that the tree is probably over 6 feet...so I don't know how much larger of a container I want it in to promote more growth.

    Then, while outside re-potting, I will spray with some spray. I did have to use bug spikes (like the fertilizer ones) after we first moved to this house because it had some type of fruit-fly-like infestation in the soil.(I don't see that now though) Those worked well so as well as leaf spraying, I will see if I can find more of those.

    Thanks again! I will see if I can get a picture posted soon.

    Susan (and Gladys the Grapefruit Tree)
     
  6. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    No luck with the pictures. I have 3 really good ones but the file is too large and I have tried for 30 minutes to figure out how to reduce it to no avail. Hopefully my husband will be able to when he comes home tonight.

    Thanks again!
    -S
     
  7. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    I am not that knowledgeable about potting soils and container citrus, but you can search the forum and find some good information. There are many here that recommend CHCs (coconut husk chips), but there is a specific recipie to follow and a learning curve on the watering regimen afterwards. Otherwise, many recommend orchid mix with some peat.

    If you choose to repot, I would look at the roots for any signs of root rot. If the roots are healthy and it is not root bound, you may want to rethink the potting for a while.

    Skeet
     
  8. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Thanks again for the suggestions. If there is root rot, how can I trim back the dead without totally killing this tree? Since we are on the subject of roots...what does root bound look like exactly....I think I know but just in case... (Told you that I know NOTHING)

    I have a good soil mix. It is a speciality one that I purchased 3 years ago when I last repotted the tree so I am not worried about the proper mixture, just worried about getting the tree through all this without putting it into shock.

    Thanks SO much!
    -S
     
  9. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    Root bound would mean that the roots are thick around the outer edge of the pot, if the roots are healthy they will be white or light brown but firm. If you have root rot, the roots will be dark brown and spongy, the outer coating will slip from the fiberous core.

    If that is the case you will want to carefully remove as much of the soil as possible --trim away any dead roots and repot-- you will not need to increase pot size, and you should also remove approximately the same proportion of the tree's top to balance what the tree can support
     
  10. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Concerning the possibility that the brown spots on the leaves might be insects. If the tree is indeed invested, and the insect is brown in color, then it would be scale. Citrus scale tends to grather mostly on the bottom of the leaf surface along the center rib vein, but can also be on the top of the leaf, also mostly along the central leaf vein. If it is scale you should see a yellow halo around the insect, especally on the upper surface of the leaf, and you should be able to easily scratch the insect off with your fingernail. The yellow halo is caused by the insect (scale) sucking juices from within the leaf. Concerning re-potting the tree, this would have to be done with great care. At this time I would repot the tree as a last resort. As Skeeter said in an above post, from the symptoms shown by the tree, I seriously doubt that this tree has root rot. If repotting is required just go to a container 2-3 inches larger, and only remove one inch of soil from the outside edge of the rootball using the garden hose. However, if the tree's problem is not bugs, (and it could will not be bugs) then I believe the most likely problem is a high soluble salt build up in the soil. High soluble salts is a common occurrence in container citrus and is rather easy to correct. Soluble salts can be flushed out of the container by pouring clean clear water through the soil in the amount of 4 times the volume of the container. Containers should be flushed at least two times a year, and more often if you have hard water. The first symptoms of high soluble salts are leaves with a lack luster appearance, then as the salts continue to build up in the soil, brown, dead/dried leaf spots and or brown leaf margins appear. If not corrected, then the leaves abcise from the branch and fall, many times leaving the petiole (leaf stem) still attached to the branch. Know that everything is a best possible guess without a picture. From your posts, you seem to be watering the tree more or less correctly. The correct way to water a containerized citrus tree is to water the soil well so that approximately 10 percent of the irrigation water drains out of the bottom container's drain holes, then wait until the top two or three inches of soil dries before watering again. If you are watering the tree so that no water, or very little water is draining from the bottom of the container, then I believe that the tree's problem is a toxic level of soluble salts in the soil. No matter what, I would recommend flushing the container at this time as a matter of good container management. Good luck to this tree.- Millet
     
  11. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Thanks for the info. We do have hard water her so salt is one issue that we may be facing. I think that the container is large enough but have never touched the roots before so I am afraid of it being root bound. (then leading to root rot) Either way, the plan is to take her outside tomorrow (a semi sunny day in the 60s here) and see what we can find.
    I'll keep you posted. I think that we will buy the soil just in case I decide in a week or so to re-pot but for now will plan on drenching her with free run-off to promote the soil to clean itself.
    Keep your fingers crossed! THANKS!
    -Susan (and Gladys who is now happy someone who knows what they are doing is coming to her rescue!)

    EDITED: Sorry...I didn't realize that I wouldn't be able to reply to Skeeterbug too. Thanks for the info on the root issues. I now feel like I am able to look at the root ball with good eyes and THEN panic. Now at least I am informed if we decide to re-pot or change soil to new. Thanks again!
     
  12. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The symptoms of root rot are general decline of the foliage with a great amount of leaf wilt due to the root system not being able to supply the required amount of water to the leaves. - Millet
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2006
  13. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    So we discussed it and I think our first action is to water it well and wash out all the possible salt mineral residue. If we do this...how long should we wait until we have decided that this worked or not and what signs from the tree should I be looking for?

    I really was ready to just re-pot and go from there. New soil, check roots, water well and start from square one but if you say that you'd wait to re-pot, how long should I give Gladys to turn around? I am afraid that we are going to loose the semi-warm outside weather that we currently have. (hard to re-pot a large tree in the garage when it's cold!)

    Thanks again!

    Susan and Gladys
     
  14. Laaz

    Laaz Active Member 10 Years

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    sizenson I would check the roots before you do anything. If it is indeed root rot, adding more water will just increase the decline of the tree.
     
  15. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    My friend Laaz's recommendaion is worth listening too, because to check for root rot only takes one or at most two minutes to accomplish. Just slip the the tree from the container and you will see immediately what condition the roots are in. However, spots on leaves are not symptoms of root rot, but it would be worth the two minutes time to check them. If you repot by removing all the soil attached to the tree's root system, you better know EXACTLY how and what to do . - Millet
     
  16. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Well... for better or worse, we did a combo of all of the above postings.
    First we carefully slid the whole pot outside. We tilted her over and slid her out of the old pot. We took away all the gravel that was in the bottom of her pot (keep in mind that she is in the kitchen so I can't just let it free drain away and I need pot help for that too) and replace it with new pea-gravel. The I checked the roots. I can't say that they were all rotted but some were slightly mushy. It didn't seem root bound so I just took my time and carefully brushed away all the loose old dirt that I could without upsetting the intact root system. This took a while and I did manage to get quite a bit of old (anemic looking) dirt away from the general root ball. I trimmed the mushy roots back a bit at a time (I do my dog's nails and anyone who does that KNOWS not to cut too much too quickly!!) keeping it slow and even. Then we repotted back into the same pot (that my husband had washed out and replaced the gravel) with a special soil blend that we bought at the local nursery for trees. We then pruned anything that was dead to encourage new growth and stop the energy from going to the dead stuff. Then we carefully took her to the edge of the patio where she had a long slow drink to flush out what I couldn't take off the root ball. She spent the day in the sun and we moved her back to her space of honor in the kitchen. We are going to give it a week to see how she does and hope for the best. ( with fingers crossed!) Thanks to all of you who helped me try to find my way here. I just hope that she survives as we head into winter. If she does, I have pledged that I am going to set her outside next summer so that she can enjoy the season. (I did this one year and though had to treat for bugs in the early fall...she totally enjoyed the heat and humidity of Ohio) Keep your pruning shears crossed for Gladys...she is a much loved member of our family that we hope will be around for a while!
    Thanks again so much!

    Susan (and Gladys!)
     
  17. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Good luck to your tree. The belief of putting gravel or small rocks in the bottom of containers to "help" with drainage, is quite commonly held. However, it has been found that this actually retards drainage, because the layer of gravel raises the perched water table of the growth medium. The tree's root system is much better off when no gravel is added to the bottom of the container. - Millet
     
  18. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Oh well. The gravel is there. Next time we check the roots we'll remove it. Thanks again! I'll keep you posted as to what happens.

    Susan and Gladys
     
  19. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    I hope it does well. I did not reply, but have been following the thread. You had very knowledgable help with Millet and Lazz.

    -- Skeet
     
  20. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Good to know you had an eye on my posts. I did feel very comfortable with all the information that was given to me. So far...she is quietly in her corner just enjoying the sun and her new soil. I hope that this works...but at least if it doesn't my husband was part of the decision making process...so all the guilt won't be mine! (at last...after 25 years of claiming that the tree was "his"...he did something for her!)
    She can't help but grow after his effort. (at least...this is what I keep telling myself!)

    Thanks again! I'll let you know when I see some new growth and good things happening.

    Susan and her friend Gladys
     
  21. Paula G

    Paula G Member

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    As a fellow pet grapefruit tree owner, I am intrigued to know if your tree has improved since you last posted...
     
  22. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    Sorry for the delay in replying. I had forgotton my password and after 3 weeks of trying to remember it...I just gave up. (stubborn...it's stupid I know but stubborn!)

    So...how is Gladys doing? She is looking really good. (compared to what she looked like before) I do see lots of new growth and we are being really careful what we do with her and how she is touched and moved. (not at all...the kids know with penalty of death!)

    The only issue now is that she is crawling with "fruit fly" type bugs and I don't know what to do with them except spray the surface of the dirt in the pot with a tame spray. I did find some spikes several years ago that delivered the bug killer down into the soil but I think that they are officially banned now and I am at a loss.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks for asking.....I appreciate it!

    Susan (and Gladys who is still happy to be around...bugs and all!)
     
  23. Paula G

    Paula G Member

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    The soil is crawling with them? Do you think they are fungus gnats?
     
  24. sizenson

    sizenson Member

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    I don't know what a fungus gnat is but they look like fruit flies. (that teeny) I blamed my husband (when all else fails...this works...ha ha ha) that he purchased "buggy" soil and now we are in for a fight.

    I remember having similar bugs one other time when we moved the plant inside after she enjoyed a steamy Columbus summer on the deck but then used those bug-spikes (now outlawed or I'd get them again) and they really killed the bugs. I was using my vaccume EVERY day to clean up the dead critters from those wonderful spikes and within 3 weeks (and limited watering) all the bugs were gone.

    I am afraid to use too much spray (even though it says it's a "natural" compound) because I don't want to kill Gladys. I need to get into the soil and near the roots though. AUGH!! This TREE!!

    If they are the gnats...what do I do then?

    Thanks!
    -Susan (caretaker for Gladys)

    PS I have seen these critters in another house plant too. It's a teeny plant that I couldn't care less about though so I can just ditch it! HELP!
     
  25. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    If they are fungus gnats, they can damage the roots some by eating the fine root hairs, but primarialy they are just eating organic matter. They tend to like moist soil, so drier soil will help.

    You can get some yellow sticky cards that will trap them, or you can spray the soil directly with the pyrethroid based spray--it will not hurt the tree.

    Skeet
     

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