Sangu Kaku Japanese Maple: Red Bark ??

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Mark099, Aug 20, 2006.

  1. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    Hi Gang,

    First post here!

    We had some landscaping done and requested to have a Sangu Kaku maple planted. We have seen pictures and the ones at the nurseries -- they all have red bark. The one the landscaper brought does not have red bark. The new growth is pinkish/reddish, but I have seen other maples with reddish new growth too.

    The landscaper said the bark was not red because it was originally kept in the shade. After several weeks of sun and still no red bark, were we given the right maple?
     
  2. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sango kaku turns red in the winter, after leaf fall. That's part of the appeal, since it changes the winter landscape. Reddish/pink is good in the summer.
     
  3. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    The ones we saw in the nursery, and knew they were Sangu Kaku, had red bark in July. The one the landscaper gave us has brown bark.
     
  4. agentf1

    agentf1 Member

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    Our tree is always red. Although when I went to the nursery I noticed some where redder than others and like you said some where not even red. I asked the nursery guy and he said it is probably how they were grown, could be the soil or it could just be different trees. I made a point to pick a nice red one. It is a beautiful tree, I cannot wait for it to keep getting bigger.
     
  5. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  6. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    From what I can conclude -- there are different variants of the Sangu Kaku. BUT -- are any of the variants with brown bark or bark that would be brown if grown in mostly shade?

    I am convinced that the landscaper gave us the wrong tree figuring we were too stupid to know the difference.
     
  7. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Mark-

    try posting a couple of pics. Someone with a good eye might be able to tell you.
    Schusch
     
  8. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    I don't have any pics, sorry. It's a long story, but the short version is this. We were ripped off by a local landscaper and the issue with the Sangu Kaku is just one of the many things I plan on using in court.
     
  9. shelli

    shelli Active Member

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    You may be giving the landscaper too much credit. It's possible the landscaper was "too stupid" to know the difference!!! Or just plain didn't care what kind of maple he gave you. I wouldn't doubt that for a minute. :-)
     
  10. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    Actually, the landscaper is a she and a self-professed plant expert.

    So, are we in agreement here that no variant of Sangu Kaku has brown bark?
     
  11. shelli

    shelli Active Member

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  12. Galt

    Galt Active Member

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    Yes there are a number of variants of Sango kaku as have been described in various threads here. Some are smaller or larger and various intensities of coloration in the bark at different times of the year. There are a number of "coral" bark varieties or named cultivars that resemble Sango kaku and vary in timing and intensity of characteristics and growth habit.

    As has been pointed out in this forum before, seedling selections from coral bark maples can be somewhat true to the parent plant and also have some degreee of coloration but likely not that of the parent.

    How old or large is your plant? What is the caliper on the trunk?

    There are many factors involved in "causing the bark to color" some of which are understood and others that are not. For the most part, the most intense color for Sango kaku or a closely realated variant is achieved in the winter when temperature as sufficiently cold to trigger the physiological processes that cause bark coloration.

    Many of the Sango kaku grown for sale as landscape plants will only show intense red coloration in the winter. The older the bark gets the more grey it becomes, sometimes with a pinkish hue, but it becomes a non-coral color. The oldest bark will not color well in the winter either as this characteristic is slowly lost with age on many plant. That is not to say that one could not find a plant that held its color better than another or that some variants are not superior to others, but as far as what you will typically get for a landscape plant in many locales, greying of the bark with age is common.

    Thereby, red or coral color is seen most intensely on the newest twigs in the winter or cold part of the year. A gradiant of coral will be seen in various ages of bark. It is NOT UNCOMMON for a plant sold a Sango kaku to show very little of NO coral in the hottest part of the year in direct sun. I have one young plant here that shows not coral at all right now and the new shoots are green but I have had the plant for a few years and know that it will show red as winter approaces.

    There is no way you can know what your plant is until you have seen it through a winter and given the vast variation in variants and the effects of climate and culture, only time will tell. Now, if the tree was recently planted for you and you are not happy with it and have found a plant that more closely resembles what you want, I would think that a reputable landscaper might be willing to work with you. Of course there is no guarantee that it will do what you want when you put it in the ground.

    I think you have received a great deal of useful and accurate information before my post and the attitude you have taken to dismiss all of it to hang on to your preconceived notion about the plant you have and the landscaper is disrespectful. What is the purpose of asking a question of a group of people you believe to be experts and then dismissing what they say? Really, why is it you think we want to help you fight your court battle against a landscaper that probably gave you the right tree even if she did put the screws to you on other parts of the project.

    Jut to be clear, we are not in agreement as many Sango kaku and plants sold as Sango kaku can have and do have browish or grey bark at some point in the season and that increases with age. It is possible for a plant to show no sign of coral in the summer, but many also do.
     
  13. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    IF you knew all the ways this landscaper tried to screw us you would understand my attitude at this point. The Sangu Kaku is just one of many issues involved -- others included overstating of the hours worked and overcharging for materials.

    The tree is no longer in our possession. It was brownish in colour, had dark green leaves, and showed only pinkish new growth. However, I have seen other maples with pinkish new growth so that it why I am questioning everything. It, in no way, looked remotely similar to the ones we were seeing in the nursery about 15 minutes from our house.

    We were told by the landscaper that the bark wasn't red because it was grown in the SHADE in her backyard. You say that this could happen, but when it is grown in the direct SUN. Others have posted that this maple will not do as well in full sun. So which is it? Shade, sun or both?

    We are out $3500 and have nothing to show for it. I am trying to mount a case against her credibility. This is part of it. But, if you are saying that Sangu Kakus can have brown or gray bark if shade grown then I leave this issue alone.

    Thanks for your information.
     
  14. jumbojimmy

    jumbojimmy Active Member

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    Hi everyone,

    This year, my sangu kaku didn't show much reddness in its bark.

    Two years ago, when I brought it it was deep red...so it could be the environment that causes the reddness of the bark.

    Regardless of this, my sango kaku is looking as beautiful as ever. It is grown in a pot and i decided to move it ito a shady area - in a car-port, where my outdoor furniture is located just so that i can see the beautiful lush light-green leaves.

    The reason why I wanted to move to this location is because last year, I have seen the leaves from the top branches turning brown and died out. This could be as a result of too much sunlight and not enough watering.

    So, if I move to a shady area, will my sango-kaku survive?????

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Mark i can understand your point of view. When my parents build this house, and hired a landscaper to do our garden bed, he did a very VERY bad job.

    He didn't use a rotery-hoe ( a machine) to loosen up the soil. He worked alone instead of hiring staffs to help him, and he uses a shovel to dig the ground, and charged us $1,200 for this, including installing a fountain and layering out the grasses.

    The garden bed is still water logged, and the grasses aren't growing well, and all my plants grown in the garden bed have died or either turned yellow, or takes years to grow.

    That's why my precious plants and trees are now grown in pots.


    WORD of ADVICE to anyone thinking of hiring a landscaper:

    - They MUST use a rotery-hoe. Manual digging does not work if the soil is hard and clay.
    - There should be at least 3 people to do this job NOT 1 person!!!!


    We didn't even think of sueing him... what's the use? I believe in Karma, good people tends to have good things happen to them...Rather than getting mad and angry, I treat this incident as a learning experience so that I don't fall into the same mistake again.
     
  15. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    We do have a lot of clay here too, but we have had a lot of very good top soil put into our garden beds.

    We did buy a real Sango Kaku today. It's really small -- only about a year old -- but that's all the nursery had left until next spring. We only paid $50 CDN for it so we'll likely continue to look for a better specimen.

    We also found out today that we'll finally get our landscaping finished at the end of September by someone we have worked with before.
     
  16. jumbojimmy

    jumbojimmy Active Member

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    good for you.

    growing masses of sango-kaku in a straight line looks beautiful. I like contemporary design, you know clean lines.

    if you put a spot light under your sango-kaku tree, you get this "wow" factor when winter comes and the bark turns red at night.
     
  17. Metro Maples

    Metro Maples Member Maple Society

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    Stunted plants also reduce the amount of red. Vigorous plants always are more red. This year I had some Sango Kaku that stayed red in the shade, probable from them going dormant from the heat. Usually they need sun and cold. I have found the coral barks to be much more drought tolerant than other Japanese maples.
     
  18. Mark099

    Mark099 Member

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    So, is the shade more likely or less likely to keep the bark red?
     
  19. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Interesting debate, let me pitch in.
    I have tried several times, in this and other forums, to launch a discussion on bark coloration and how the environmental factors affect it. However it appears that little scientific background is available and we are mostly left with empirical data.
    My own experience with the 'Coral bark' palmatums is that for best coloration you need both cold weather and direct sun exposure. It is not unusual for them to show good colors only in the southern facing half of the trunk or branches. A given tree, when moved to a sunnier position will display better colors.

    Gomero
     
  20. Metro Maples

    Metro Maples Member Maple Society

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    Yes, cold and lots of sun really turns the bark flourescent coral red. Cloudy winters or even lots of thick branches overhead does keep the bark from turning really red. My last 2 winters had very little cold and the coral barks do not color well at all. The best site for me is on the side south of deciduous trees, with a sunny opening to the south. When the sun it hot the maple gets overhead shade. When the temperatures are cool the sun's angle is lower and the maple receives lots of sun. Then in winter, it is receiving full sun. The best red color is on south side, and many times the wood on the north side is yellow. If you have your house to the south of the coral bark maple with a nice window facing north you can view this spectacular tree from inside, where it's warm, all winter.
     

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