Astilboides or Darmera? And other big-leafed peltate plants

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by wcutler, Jul 23, 2022.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Do I have to wait for flowers next year, or is there some way I could tell if this plant at VanDusen Botanical Garden is Astilboides tabularis or Darmera peltata?
    Darmera-peltata__VanDusen_Cutler_20220722_145156.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220722_145129.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220722_145135.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220722_145219.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2022
  2. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    My vote goes to Darmera peltata.

    Pink fowers come in spring before the leaves...leaves rugged.
    DARMERA  PELTATA 14-06-2015 14-25-12.JPG DARMERA  PELTATA 14-06-2015 14-25-49.JPG DARMERA  PELTATA 14-06-2015 14-26-45.JPG
    DARMERA  PELTATA  NANA 05-05-2012 15-45-05.JPG DARMERA  PELTATA 05-05-2013 14-36-05.JPG DARMERA  PELTATA 22-05-2015 14-41-11.JPG



    Astilboides tabularis should have white flowers now...sort of fluffy.
    leaves smoother less rugged.
    ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 13-07-2008 18-58-08.JPG ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 21-04-2009 16-39-13.JPG ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 21-04-2009 16-39-28.JPG ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 23-06-2008 14-49-55.JPG ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 25-05-2011 11-47-08.JPG ASTILBOIDES  TABULARIS 25-05-2011 11-47-29.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2022
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  3. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Silver Surfer. The photos I took at UBCBG of Astilboides tabularis ((1) July 2022 in the Garden | UBC Botanical Garden Forums) appear to me more similar to your Darmera (or is it now Peltiphyllum peltatum?) photos, except the leaves were much much larger. I didn't see the label for them, but they're where Douglas Justice described them in his blog, and Garden Explorer doesn't show any Darmera in that garden by any of its names. And the photo of Astilboides leaves in the blog look more similar to your first group of photos, with the less smooth leaf margins. However, on close-up, the Astilboides leaf margins seem to have very fine serrations, different from the close-up margins of Darmera.

    I wondered if the appearance of the base of the stems would be distinctive, but I can't find any other photos of the stem bases of either plant. I zoomed in on your last photo, but the stem bases seem to be under water.

    I'm pretty convinced the VanDusen ones are Darmera. I just remembered I can search VanDusen's plant collections. They have both, in different locations. I should be able to learn to ID these. It's too bad I have no idea where I was when I photographed them.
    I'm going to rename my photos and replace them. Thanks.
     
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  4. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    That's because Darmera are native to the US, so are on the east side of VanDusen in the North American area, where I was. they are in the Saxifragaceae family. Here are a few more photos from today. I didn't notice whatever was at the bases of the leaf stalks of the ones I photographed last week. Today's photos were from different groups. The leaf diameters on the largest were about twice my hand-span.
    Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_140747.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_141243.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_141356.jpg
    Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_141254.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_141305.jpg Darmera-peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_141334.jpg

    Astilboides are also in the Saxifragaceae family, from China, in the Sino-Himalayan section of the garden, on the west side. I was relieved to finally find this group in the Meditation Garden area, but I could not get up to it.
    Astilboides tabularis_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_150350.jpg
    But then, across the path from the food garden and the blue tractor (which is on their map), near but not exactly in the Sino-Himalayan area, is a huge area of what I thought must be the Astilboides. There are no new flowers, but there were not any flowers on the ones at UBCBG when I photographed them at the end of June. The flowers from last year look more Astilbe-like than Darmera-like. These leaves don't have smooth surfaces, though, and the leaf margins look more like Darmera. So I'm confused again. The smallest of the leaves were the same size as the east-side Darmera leaves, but many leaves were a lot larger.
    Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151540.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151540.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151559.jpg
    Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151626.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151714.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151742.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151817.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151932.jpg
    Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151612.jpg Darmera peltata_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_151853.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
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  5. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Just when I thought my confusion could not get any worse, I came upon another plant with large peltate leaves, Diphylleia grayi. Common name is skeleton flower, because the petals become transparent when they are wet, then return to white when they dry. Finally, finally, it occurred to me that the name must mean something, and the leaves did not look lobed, and then I realized that the leaves are compound - two leaflets on a leaf stalk. So I won't confuse this with the other two. Diphylleia grayi - Wikipedia has an interesting note on this plant in popular culture:
    South Korean artist Jonghyun, a member of the boy band Shinee, wrote and released a song titled "Diphylleia Grayi" in 2015 as part of his album Story Op.1. The composition "Diphylleia Grayi" uses the double-leaf metaphor as the personification of internal and external struggle. In September 2015, Jonghyun presented his book Skeleton Flower: Things That Have Been Released and Set Free.​
    This plant is in the Berberidaceae family; it's native to Japan.
    Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_143403.jpg Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_143411.jpg
    Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_143439.jpg Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_143452.jpg Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_143509.jpg
    Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_153125.jpg Diphylleia-grayi_VanDusen_Cutler_20220726_153139.jpg
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Well, I had not looked up all the Darmera locations on the VanDusen map. It is indeed on the map in the locations I just found. So that one Astilboides that I could not get close to is the only one I found. I'll rename and replace all the new photos too.
     
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  7. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    In our old garden we grew many interesting plants....including Diphylleia cymosa.
    Pics below show clearly the leaves.
    Quote Beth Chatto...

    "An eye-catching foliage plant for cool shade and retentive soil. Large rounded leaves, deeply cut, almost divided in half, present a flat table top, red stained when young, maturing rich green. Above them, in early summer, appear clusters of small white flowers succeeded by sloe-coloured berries attached to brilliant red enamelled stalks."

    DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 02-08-2012 16-45-11.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 04-06-2007 17-09-055.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 07-06-2007 16-55-40.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 18-05-2008 12-04-37.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 19-05-2008 12-53-34.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 23-05-2007 10-19-39.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 23-05-2007 14-32-27.JPG DIPHYLLEIA  CYMOSA 27-04-2008 18-59-57.JPG
     
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  8. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I'm adding some photos of Darmera peltata fruits, from a planting in the Stanley Park Greig Rhododendron Garden.

    Darmera-peltata_StanleyPark-GreigRhododendronGarden_Cutler_20230522_154825.jpg Darmera-peltata_StanleyPark-GreigRhododendronGarden_Cutler_20230522_154836.jpg Darmera-peltata_StanleyPark-GreigRhododendronGarden_Cutler_20230522_154843.jpg Darmera-peltata_StanleyPark-GreigRhododendronGarden_Cutler_20230522_154933.jpg Darmera-peltata_StanleyPark-GreigRhododendronGarden_Cutler_20230522_155009.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I was at VanDusen Botanical Garden today, not looking for Astilboides tabularis and came across two small plantings of them. There are no flowers right now. That second photo is to show that they're to the left of Illicium henryi, Anise tree.
    Astilboides-tabularis_VanDusenBG_Cutler_20230529_153745.jpg Astilboides-tabularis_VanDusenBG_Cutler_20230529_153825.jpg Astilboides-tabularis_VanDusenBG_Cutler_20230529_154238.jpg
     
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  10. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I forgot to confuse all these peltate-leafed plants with Peltoboykinia tellimoides, also in Saxifragaceae. These are at UBCBG, right in front of the Upper Asian Way planting of Astilboides tabularis. Edited: According to posting #15 below, these should be Peltoboykinia watanabei, based on the lobes much longer than wide.
    Peltoboykinia tellimoides_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_142131.jpg Peltoboykinia tellimoides_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_143221.jpg Peltoboykinia tellimoides_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_143402.jpg Peltoboykinia tellimoides_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_143451.jpg Peltoboykinia tellimoides_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_143402cropped.jpg

    Peltoboykinia tellimoides and Astilboides tabularis_UBCBG_Cutler_20230602_143806.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
  11. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    To add to the confusion.....Peltoboykinia watanabei


    . PELTOBOYKINIA  WATANABEI 07-05-2008 16-23-53.jpg PELTOBOYKINIA  WATANABEI 07-05-2008 16-24-12.jpg PELTOBOYKINIA  WATANABEI 20-10-2012 16-07-03.jpg PELTOBOYKINIA  WATANABEI 31-07-2010 12-54-17.jpg
     
  12. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Other one.....Peltoboykinia tellimoides


    PELTOBOYKINIA  TELLIMOIDES 05-05-2007 10-41-29.jpg PELTOBOYKINIA  TELLIMOIDES 24-05-2007 11-25-38.jpg
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Oh, right. I have not seen a label for that, but I was confused about the two Peltoboykinia species in the posting at https://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc....arge-flowers-in-the-garden.75062/#post-301394. There was a tellimoides label very near to the plant I posted just above. Yet your photos show P. tellimoides with much shallower lobes. But some of the leaves in my photos have shallower lobes. The first photo in Garden Explorer shows leaves like mine (might be same plant): Peltoboykinia tellimoides - peltoboykinia, yawato-so | UBC Botanical Garden. The 5th photo's leaves look more like yours.

    On my old database listing, they are not in the same bed, but I can't tell that on the more recent Garden Explorer markers. I had got the idea in the posting 10 years ago that P. tellimoides flowers were less hairy and leaf angles were sharper, but nothing here is consistent with that.
     
  14. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Peltoboykinia in Flora of China @ efloras.org says "Basal leaves long petiolate, peltate or orbicular-cordate, large, palmately lobed; stipules membranous. Cauline leaves few, similar to basal ones but much smaller", which reminds me that I noticed that the leaves on the upper part of the flowering stem (cauline leaves) are not peltate on whatever it is I photographed. Flora of China does not include the Japanese P. watanabei.
     
  15. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Well-Known Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    The following from Flora of Japan:

    Leaves 7- to 13-lobed, the lobes ovate-deltoid, abruptly acute, broader than long = P. tellimoides
    Leaves 8- to 10-cleft, the lobes narrowly cuneate-ovate, acuminate, 2—3 times as long as wide = P. watanabei

    Obviously, a review is in order. Thanks Silver Surfer and Wendy for pointing this out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2023
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  16. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Well-Known Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Regarding Astilboides vs. Darmera:

    Astilboides: rhizomatous; leaves not in a rosette, dull green, stiffly hairy on upper surface; red pigments in tissues lacking; flowers following leaf emergence.
    Darmera: short, caudex-like rhizome; leaves in a rosette, bright green, more or less glabrous; red pigments in tissues present; flowers before leaf emergence.
     
  17. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks for the postings, @Douglas Justice. The Astilboides vs. Darmera distinction is so easy in the spring!
    But in posting #4, it's not clear that those stems are in a rosette. Maybe those are Peltoboykinia? I can't check that right now.
     
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I guess not. VanDusen only shows Peltoboykinia watanabei, one accession, in the Japanese Collection, and I photographed the plant in posting #4 one minute before photographing the Catalpa bignoniodes 'Aurea', at the other end of the Rhododendron walk, too far away for that photo to have been the Peltoboykinia. There is a Darmera peltata very near the catalpa.
     
  19. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Why not confuse all these with Podophyllum pleianthum, mayapple? I saw this plant in my neighbourhood yesterday. I thought this was this thread's first foray out of Saxifragaceae, but the Diphylleia is with Podophyllum in the Berberidaceae. The flowers look very different, though I have not personally seen them. I did find fruits hidden under the leaves, but I can't even find a photo that shows ripe fruit of this species; the page at Dysosma pleiantha in Flora of China @ efloras.org (Wikipedia shows Dysosma as the synonym) says the berry is purplish-black, 3x2 cm. I learned there that the leaves are opposite, so I am showing here a single leaf of this plant, which is all there was. That's a great distinguishing feature, though. Oh wait, that's the case for Diphylleia too.
    Dysosma in Flora of China @ efloras.org is not giving me much choice of species, but the description for Dysosma pleiantha says both leaf surfaces are glabrous. I'm seeing hairs on the veins here - I guess that doesn't count.
    Podophyllum pleianthum_CarderoRosemaryBrownLa_Cutler_20230605_164754.jpg Podophyllum pleianthum_CarderoRosemaryBrownLa_Cutler_20230605_164801.jpg Podophyllum pleianthum_CarderoRosemaryBrownLa_Cutler_20230605_164831.jpg
    I also saw this at VanDusen last week.
    Podophyllum pleianthum-ChineseMayapple_VanDusenBG_Cutler_20230529_144206.jpg
     
  20. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are a few Darmera stems from Stanley Park's Azalea Path. The fruits have dried up already. Oops, sorry, couldn't ignore that Magnolia tripetala.
    Darmera peltata_StanleyPark-AzaleaPath_Cutler_20230607_151410.jpg Darmera peltata_StanleyPark-AzaleaPath_Cutler_20230607_151507.jpg Magnolia tripetala_StanleyPark-AzaleaPath_Cutler_20230607_153651.jpg
    Darmera peltata_StanleyPark-AzaleaPath_Cutler_20230607_151533.jpg Darmera peltata_StanleyPark-AzaleaPath_Cutler_20230607_153706.jpg

    I'm repeating a photo I posted above of Astilboides stems, each looking very alone.
    Astilboides-tabularis_VanDusenBG_Cutler_20230529_154238.jpg
     
  21. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I found a Diphylleia at UBCBG today in the Winter Garden (I didn't see a label; the species is not identified for this location in Garden Explorer).
    Diphylleia Sp_UBCBG_Cutler_20230614_162634.jpg Diphylleia Sp_UBCBG_Cutler_20230614_162646.jpg Diphylleia Sp_UBCBG_Cutler_20230614_162653.jpg Diphylleia Sp_UBCBG_Cutler_20230614_162702.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2023

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