Can a Ukigumo be so green?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by copperbeech, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. copperbeech

    copperbeech Active Member 10 Years

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    I saw this specimen today; 5 feet, healthy and nicely shaped. BUT I was not expecting to ever see such solid green for a U. (At this nursery it is in lots of shade).

    So could it be a Ukigumo or is it likely mislabelled?

    And say for argument sake it is a Ukigumo. What is the chances that it will remain as is ie all green "forever"?
     

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    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  2. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

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    Mislabeled, IMHO.
     
  3. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Definitely mislabled. Looks more like Going Green .
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Pots are way too small and should not be buried in the ground.
     
  5. copperbeech

    copperbeech Active Member 10 Years

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    Pots are way too small and should not be buried in the ground.

    A very healthy looking specimen even so. He buries them as he has success overwintering his stock this way.
     
  6. Sulev

    Sulev Contributor

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    I don't know much of Japanese maples, but in general, if plants with a specific leaf color are growing in the constant shade, then they may not show their proper color.
    It looks like the soil is sandy there and such burying won't hurt container plants, because no adverse effect on drainage. Possibly this kind of burying helps to avoid from lying plants down by the wind and also keep roots in more steady temperature range.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    In the correctly sized pots they wouldn't be so likely to blow over - as it is now their roots will be extremely deformed and compacted by those now proportionately tiny pots, regardless of what the tops look like. Something that will result in failures later, once the trees start girdling themselves.
     
  8. Sulev

    Sulev Contributor

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    I agree - I'd like to see a plant that big in a container with at least twice the diameter and height that I see from the photo here.
     
  9. copperbeech

    copperbeech Active Member 10 Years

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    Given that you haven't been to this nursery I can tell you that it would be difficult to upend this maple as the nursery itself is nestled in a mixed tree woodlot; the JMs interspersed with full grown conifers. And most of the pots have been dug into the sandy soil providing further support.

    It is rare that I don't find a potted tree/shrub/plant root bound regardless of the source. One simply takes a small slice off the bottom and tease out the major roots from the sides and into the hole it goes. I can't recall the last time I lost a plant or tree that exhibited any sign of "strangulation" when dug out.

    Considering the original inquiry of this thread "you" are being too critical.
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Friends had to cut down a mature Acer davidii because uncorrected circling roots dating back to the planting date decades beforehand were cutting into the trunk at the base of the tree, causing the bark above the level of the roots to turn black and start oozing.

    Another thing that rootbound trees do is blow over suddenly, once the top has gotten big and heavy enough to overwhelm their defective anchorage. Such specimens can be big enough to do damage when this happens.

    I had a row of foundation shrubs blow over under the weight of snow one winter, about 25 years after planting. Their roots turned out to consist primarily of tight, turnip-like wads dating back to when they spent too much time in small pots during the production process.

    With a few roots that had managed to escape and grow outward here and there accounting for all subsequent top development.
     
  11. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    Looks like it's possible from the first post here......

    Okigumo or Not?
     
  12. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Good morning Mani, even if it's kept in sun or shade an Ukigumo will show some of it's tell tell signs of varigation. But they do prefer shade.
    There are some cases where people have left the rootstock leaves to take over an Ukigumo ( reversion), then you can have a label that says Ukigumo that is entirely green. But then it is no longer an Ukigumo.

    D
     
  13. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

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    I made and still have an air-layer Ukigumo that went to green leaves. Even after late-spring defoliation the leaves remained larger and solid green. After two years of this frustration, I cut it back hard ('chopped it' in American bonsai-ese). It has reliably been Ukigumo ever since (5+ years now). I still don't understand how a tree could behave this way, but it is a fact that it did (an I think it not due to my horticultural genius!).
    IMG_20200428_121721686.jpg

    I cannot find a photograph of the green leaves it had for 2 years. Nevertheless, I still think @copperbeech's pictured tree is mislabeled.
     
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  14. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    Were the green leaves the same shape and size as the variegated ones? If not then it was probably the root stock?

    btw it makes a lovely Bonsai!!
     
  15. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

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    @Mani, the green leaves were larger, much larger than the normal Ukigumo leaf size. My memory is that they had a touch of variegation, a whitish edge or they were speckled green, but I fear that I am inventing memories. Now I really wish I had taken some pix and kept them for an occasion such as this. But alas ...

    We had a grafted landscape specimen of which I air layered a stem. It had Ukigumo leaves at that time and when I 'harvested' it in Aug/Sep and potted it. If I recall correctly, it was about 3 feet tall. It was the following 2 seasons that it had nothing but large green leaves. Then I simply chopped it down to about 12 inches and it has produced nothing but Ukigumo leaves since. Hence, this had nothing to do with any root stock, per se.

    btw, it is an extremely difficult species for bonsai. But I love the foliage.
     
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  16. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    What makes one species good for bonsai and another bad?
     
  17. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Good morning J, loved the photo of your Ukigumo. You say it is maybe a difficult one to Bonsai, but you have certainly succeeded. Looks wonderful to me.
    D
     
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  18. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    Yes, incredibly unique as a bonsai! I've never seen one before!
     
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  19. copperbeech

    copperbeech Active Member 10 Years

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    Moot for me as I never purchased said specimen.
     
  20. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

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    It is that Ukigumo's growth and response to pruning is unpredictable. Leave a branch alone to thicken and it often doesn't. Prune to reduce vigor and it sometimes responds with an extremely vigorous shoot. It usually produces short internodes (twiggy growth), but too often new growth has a strangely long internode (and when this happens, it must be pruned and, alas, there goes another year).
     
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  21. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    Thanks for the info!
     
  22. Mani

    Mani Active Member

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    Take a look at this: 1st pic is a normal Acer Palmatum Butterfly tree; 2nd pic is a root stock leaf growing on it but notice the edge of that leaf is variegated so your memory seems plausible; 3rd pic is a full root stock leaf growing from it!
     

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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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