First message and help with A. palmatum identification

Discussion in 'Maples' started by aromanowski, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Hello,
    My name is Andres and I am from Argentina. I am very happy to have joined your forum and am looking forward to learning and sharing about japanese maples and other ornamental trees such as cercis or gingko sp.
    I recently (two to three weeks ago) bought two young A. palmatum trees. One was simply identified as A. palmatum (no variety or cultivar specified) and the other was named A. palmatum "atropurpureum". I was wondering if you could help me find out the real type of trees i got =P, so i got some pictures. Any help is kindly appreciated.

    The big one is the one without identification and the small one is the one that was classified as atropupureum.

    Best regards,
    Andres
     

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  2. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Welcome to the forum!

    I'm glad you joined us from all the way down in Argentina. It looks like you picked up two very nice trees. Both look true to form as the tags indicated.

    Here is a link to more information on 'Atropurpureum'. http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=5536

    The one tagged as Acer palmatum looks to me like your basic Acer palmatum. But there is nothing basic about this tree. They are very popular in Japanese gardens for their beauty and grace. Its a tree that will develop into something with great elegance and form with age. As you can see your tree is already off to a great start and it has lots of potential. They also have great fall color too.

    You mention you are interested in Ginkgo, well I also collect Ginkgo too. Here is a picture of my Ginkgo biloba 'Mariken' growing as bonsai:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/japanesemaplegarden/6271076398/
    Our newest addition last year was Ginkgo biloba 'Tubiformis'
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/japanesemaplegarden/10055784296/

    But my Ginkgo talk belongs in the "Gymnosperms (incl. Conifers)" forum, which has a photo gallery too (note that its in alphabetical order)-
    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=268&order=asc&page=5

    Good luck with your new trees and welcome to the forum!
     
  3. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Hi JT,
    Thank you for the warm welcome and the help on my JMs! I am still deciding which one to plant as the center piece on my front yard... but I am pretty sure I will go with the atropurpureum ;)
    Your mariken ginkgo bonsai is amazing. A really beautiful plant!!! Did you do the bonsais yourself? What about the JMs that are next to your ginkgo?

    Best,
    Andres
     
  4. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Thank you! I do all my bonsai myself. When ever I find something in a 5 gallon container that has potential at the nursery or garden center, I take it home and make it a bonsai.

    The tree on the left of the Ginkgo, partly cut off in the photo, is 'Bloodgood'. It was 6' tall before I turned it into a bonsai. Here is a better picture of the whole tree:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/japanesemaplegarden/7867111322/

    The one on the right is 'Villa Taranto'. Glad you enjoy my bonsai creations!

    Here is a link to my bonsai gallery of all my creations from my start in 2011 to 2012. (I need to take some updated photos this year):
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/japanesemaplegarden/sets/72157631275823498/with/7867111322/
     
  5. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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  6. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi guys,

    It's worth pointing out, just for clarification, that most trees sold as 'Atropurpureum' are purple seedlings, not actually the cultivar 'Atropurpureum'. Gregory suggests these might more properly be called A. palmatum f. atropurpureum.

    I certainly could be wrong but I believe yours is likely one such as this, but that doesn't mean it won't be a fabulous tree: indeed most of the named red/purple forms are seedling selections.

    Sometimes the world of maple cultivars can be pretty choppy water... ;)

    HTH and good luck with the garden, I know you'll really enjoy these maples as they grow into their own!

    -E
     
  7. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    While I agree in general with what Emery said, I couldn't help but notice that the "atropurpureum" pictured has a noticeable kink near the base of the stem, possibly combined with a step change in stem diameter. This feature in young trees is often indicative of a healed graft, but I could be wrong: A close up photo of the base would be needed to say for certain one way or the other if it is a seedling or a grafted plant.

    As previously mentioned, the larger plant appears to be Acer palmatum subspecies palmatum typically characterised by small 5-7 lobed leaves and small seeds. The habit of this particular example, with multiple stems rising directly from near ground level, is something I would normally expect to see in two possible scenarios; either a plant grown from a cutting, or a grafted plant where the grafted portion had died and the rootstock sent out multiple epicormic shoots. Again, a close up photo of the base might tell a story.

    Enjoy your trees!
     
  8. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Dear Emery and Maf,
    Thank you both for your help. In my understanding a variety is allways true to type while a cultivar needs to be cloned (i.e., grafted, cuttings or tissue culture) in order to be kept true to type. From this definition I guess that the atropurpureum i got is, as Emery said, a purple type cultivated from seed.
    I have uploaded some photos of the stems for your viewing so that you can help me confirm this: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/121bacvxvl599kk/Towrdcurpk

    I really enjoy this trees. I have only had them for less than a month and i think i am becoming increasingly interested in the cultivation of JMs. Sadly, i have found only three types of JM trees down here: A. palmatum; A. palmatum "atropurpureum" and some kind of green dissectum (only one in a 4l pot, sold at ARS300). This were all occuring in the garden center (or is nursery the best translation?) at the japanese botanical garden from Argentina (http://jardinjapones.org.ar/).

    Best wishes,
    Andres
     
  9. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Forgive my ignorance, but what would the "f." stand for?

    Also, is it true that softwood cuttings survive just fine? I read somewhere while surfing the web that propagating JMs from cuttings was extremely difficult. Does anyone have a protocol for doing so?

    Regards,
    Andres
     
  10. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    In my original response, I chose not to mention the widespread use of seedlings for sale when purchasing atropurpureum and bloodgood in the trade. I figure its such a widespread practice that sometimes its not worth mentioning that something may not be true atropurpureum or bloodgood. Its gone on for so long do we really know what a true Bloodgood looks like? If its grafted, was the stock plant true to form? In the rare case it was grown from cutting, again, was the stock plant true to form. Honestly, these two varieties are so popular and so widely distributed with each tree having slight differences (sometimes very significant differences from the true form) its hard for many to know a true atropurpureum or bloodgood when they see it. If you think you know one when you see it...Do you really...honestly...be honest with yourself, do you really know for sure...

    Its funny how something so common as atropurpureum or bloodgood can be lost in the trade and difficult to find true. Where the more exotic varieties and extremely rare varieties are much easier to positively identify or much easier to buy the "real thing".

    When someone is truly being scammed, I feel it is important to kindly let them know that what they bought is not the real thing, what those key features are in identifying the variety, and maybe even recommend a good and trusted supplier to buy the real thing. But when someone has a atropurpureum or bloodgood that is the same as what is being widely offered in the trade, its just my opinion or judgment, not to mention the whole possibility of the seedling thing or that it may not be true to form; because I don't want to ruin that new tree feeling or send them on a blind chase looking for something that is extremely difficult to find in the trade...a true atropurpureum or bloodgood. To most, the seedling would look just like the real thing.

    I admire guys like Mr. Shep (aka Jim) who are lucky enough to have the life experience to see some of the original cultivars. Those that they did not have first hand experience with the original tree, they took the time and effort to seek it out to ensure they had the real deal in production. Unfortunately somewhere along the way, people stopped caring and we are left with the problems of today.
     
  11. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I can't say for certain, but the kink and scar on the atropurpureum type seems a lot like a grafting scar. The other one is strange indeed, but my guess would either be a cutting or a maybe even a plant that got damaged (eaten by a deer?) and has regrown from the base?

    For a discussion of Japanese maple cutting propagation see this thread for some interesting information: Acer palmatum Cutting propagation
     
  12. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Thanks maf, i will be checking out that thread!

    Regardless of whether the trees I got are of "true blood" (or should it be "true sap"? LOL) I will sure enjoy them anyways, but it is good to be well informed about this stuff!

    -Andres
     
  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Andres,

    'f' just stands for "form" I believe.

    I agree with Maf that it does look grafted (and very expertly done, too). Thanks for the extra pics.

    As I understand it certain JM's are easier to take from cuttings than others. If you can get hold of "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation" (Dirr, Heuser), perhaps from a local library, there are several protocols mentioned. While some of our respected European nurserymen have mentioned the tendency of rooted cuttings to fail suddenly after a few years, it's worth noting that at least several large nurseries are propagating this way, so perhaps there are more recent protocols that avoid these issues.

    As for the subject of TMI, I certainly hope I haven't diminished your enthusiasm. It doesn't sound like it! ;)

    cheers,

    -E
     
  14. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Well, all for the better if it is grafted! (granting the stock tree was indeed the variety in discussion hehehe)

    Thanks for the book advice! I will sure try to get a hold of a copy even if it just to satisfy my curiosity, which is kind of difficult to do... some might call it obsession, i call it desire to learn =)

    No worries about the enthusiasm, I am really pumped up about these trees! I can't wait to see them grow and go thorugh their first fall season with us =D (of course i will post pics!... I am afraid you will have to put up with me doing so haha) =P

    Best wishes!
    Andres
     
  15. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    I had some time to check out your pictures and the link to the Japanese botanical garden. The atropurpureum is grafted and given the source, I stand by what I said originally, that it is true to form. The Multi-stem Acer palmatum was expertly created too, probably by someone with experience in grafting / propagating bonsai too. The person they have doing the propagating for the Japanese botanical garden center is one of a kind, expert, and artist.

    Since it came from the Japanese botanical garden, chances are that the parent plant came from Japan (free from the mess we have created here in North America)

    Looking at the website for the Japanese botanical garden, I see they have a library. From experience many botanical gardens are rich in resources offering great books in their collection on topics like propagation. Even better, maybe you can meet the person who does the grafting and propagation for their nursery.

    Looking at everything the Japanese botanical garden from Argentina has to offer, you are lucky to have it in your area. Maybe to cut down on the overall cost of visits, they offer a membership that will pay for itself with frequent visits. My wife and I are members of our local botanical garden and have become great friends with the librarian and some of their lead horticulturalists. It opens up many opportunities that I would not have otherwise had if I was walking in off the street.
     
  16. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Hi John!
    Thanks for the great advice! Tomorrow i am going on a trip to the japanese botanical garden because of an orchid exhibition that is taking place there. I will try and see if i can find out who is the person that does the grafts. And i was not really going to but as you adviced, it will probably be great to check out the library (i completely forgot the fact that they had one). I hope they have some books in english or spanish because i do not understand japanese at all!
    It would also be great to have some kind of membership there, but the garden is about 30km (~20 miles) from home and i probably won't be able to go very often :/
    I will take pictures (although i am not very good at it) and post them on flickr for your viewing!
    Sorry for any typos but i am posting from my not so high tech cellphone :P

    Have a great weekend!
    Andres
     
  17. aromanowski

    aromanowski Member

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    Hi everyone!
    I am uploading some pics from the japanese garden... it is kind of poor, but there are some nice big planted acer palmatums, a bonsai buergerianum, the small dissectum I told you about and another atropurpureum =)

    -Andres
     

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  18. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Thanks for sharing pictures from your weekend at the Japanese botanical garden.
     

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