Propagation: Starting Cacti From Seeds

Discussion in 'Indoor and Greenhouse Plants' started by Christopher Howard, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    I've got a lot of specialty cacti that I'd like to have, but there aren't many sites that carry these plants for sale. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with starting cacti or other succulents from seeds since those seem to be easier to come by.
    I've read lots about it online, and the consensus seems to be that it isn't very difficult, but often what people write online can be littered with fallacies. I was hoping I could hear an opinion from someone on here who would have a background with this sort of thing and would be willing to tell me their experience with such.
    Much appreciated, and happy gardening.
     
  2. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Whether it is difficult or not depends on many factors:
    • the climate, some species are very tricky from seed when sown in conditions different from their habitat
    • luck/talent/experience
    • what species you want to grow, perhaps you could give some examples?
    • quality of the seeds
    • the growing medium
    ... and other things, like if you want to try closed systems (the "baggy" method) or not, and how you deal with fungi, bacteria, fungus gnats etc.

    I grow mine in a special type of cat litter, open to the atmosphere but protected from insects by a piece of thin fabric. I keep them in a propagator with fluorescent tubes.
     
  3. cagreene

    cagreene Active Member

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    getting the seeds to open is the easy part, but keeping them alive during the first year can be difficult. be careful where you buy your seeds, as i have been growing miscellaneous seeds or unknown seeds for years and just learned my 11 year old cactus was a peyote! actually there were 4 in the pack. so all that care for nothing as they are illegal in canada, and had to be given away.
    i use soiless mix, and cactus sand for starting seeds, (2 parts soiless 1 part sand) and keep them moist,(but not wet) until they are at least 2 months old and have deeper roots. i also use florescent lights until they can be moved under 1000w hps super grow-lux bulbs in main grow room.
    here is a picture of my babies started from seed, they are so small the picture is taken through a jewellers loop! good luck with your adventure!
     

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  4. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Thank you both very much. All of that information was very useful. I am thinking of buying the plants that I would like that are available off miles2go and the rest, I'd try for with seeds. Though, these will probably end up being the most difficult plants to grow. I'm open to any commentary about the plants that I show interest in. I'd actually appreciate greatly any experience or knowledge any of you'd be able to share. And I realize I probably won't be able to have all the plants that I am interested in, but that doesn't mean I still can't dream!
    I'll list some plants that really interest me. Mostly cacti with a few other succulents thrown in there for good measure. Thank you so much in advance for any commentary or insight.
    • Acanthocalycium glaucum
    • Aeonium tabuliforme
    • Aloe cryptopoda
    • Agave americana
    • Agave pumila
    • Ariocarpus fissuratus
    • Astrophytum asterias v. nudum Ooibo
    • Astrophytum capricorne
    • Aztekium hintonii
    • Aztekium ritteri
    • Discocactus horstii
    • Echinocactus ingens
    • Mammillaria coahuilensis
    • Tephrocactus geometricus
    • Turbinicarpus alonsoi
    • Turbinicarpus flaviflorus
    • Turbinicarpus flaviflorus "brevispinus"
    • Turbinicarpus jauernigii
    • Turbinicarpus lophophoroides
    • Turbinicarpus macrochele
    • Turbinicarpus sp. Negrita
    • Turbinicarpus polaskii
    • Turbinicarpus schmiedickeanus ssp. dickisoniae
    • Turbinicarpus schmiedickeanus ssp. klinkerianus
    • Turbinicarpus swobodae
    • Uebelmannia flavispina
    • Uebelmannia pectinifera
     
  5. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Not exactly beginner plants ...

    Ariocarpus, Aztekium, Astrophytum asterias are tricky, i.e. they germination is not always great, they grow slowly, and are sensitive to rot. Well, I have never rotted an Aztekium yet, but they are extremely slow-growing. Some Turbinicarpus can be a little difficult too, alonsoi and lophophoroides for example.

    Uebelmannia is another genus famous for being difficult, but I have no personal experience with it.

    I have grown several forms of Tephrocactus geometricus and they are quite easy once they have germinated. Some growers find them difficult to germinate, but in my opinion it depends on the form (of the species) and/or the supplier.

    I am not familiar with the other cacti on the list, but I have grown many Lobivia, which are close to Acanthocalycium, and they are relatively easy.
     
  6. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    That's very helpful information. Thank you. It's always very nice to hear instructions or experience directly from a source. Better than reading from a book, I'd say.

    Could I ask you, where do you prefer to get your seeds from?

    And is there a universal medium for planting the seeds in, or is that something that is dependent on the particular genus or species too?

    And one last thing on my mind, is there a specific time that you should sow these seeds inside? They're going to be under a grow light. Since they will be growing under the lights for a long time, is it important when to grow them? Or is it different for different genuses? A lot of factors, I guess, that I am wondering about on that topic. ha.

    Thank you very much for everything you've told me, and for anything else I ask that you can answer, thank you.
     
  7. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    There is a Swedish seller, SuccSeed, who specialises in South American cacti, and since that is my main interest and there is no currency conversion etc. involved I have never had a reason to try much else. :-)

    In the US you have a well-known seller, Mesa Garden (very popular in Europe too) which, according to many who have bought from them, is reliable and has a large selection of seeds, mostly North American cacti. Worth looking at I think, especially as there are many Mexican species on your wish list.

    There are almost as many soil recipes and growing methods as there are growers. Some are able to grow cacti in peat, which does not work at all for me. I sow most seeds in the same medium: a kind of cat litter made from fired moler (2–3 mm), vermiculite, and often a bit of fine coir. For particularly small-sized seeds (like Aztekium) I mix in some fine sand too. For very rot-prone species I use a organic-free mix (i.e. I exclude the coir). Some tougher species, like Pereskia and many (semi)epiphytes, can be grown in more organic-rich media.

    Not really. People who use natural light sow in spring, but if you use artificial light you can sow them now. I often sow in autumn and let them grow under the fluorescent tubes during winter, and then I put them in a sunlit spot (under a shading cloth) in spring/summer.
     
  8. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Hey Mandarin, that was a great help. thanks so much. I've found a bunch of seeds for the plants I wanted on Mesa Garden. That's really great. I'm really excited to get those and get started on that.

    Are you growing any seeds right now?
     
  9. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I have not started anything recently, I don't have the space. I still have many seedlings from the last two years: Aztekium hintonii and ritteri; Ariocarpus agavoides; Coryphantha elephantidens and kracikii; Echinocereus poselgeri and palmeri; Eriosyce curvispina, subgibbosa, heinrichiana, spectabilis and andreana; Lobivia nigrostoma, calorubra, aurea and haematantha (big favourite); Lophophora williamsii; Maihuenia patagonica; Gymnocalycium oenanthemum; Rebutia einsteinii, violaciflora and pygmaea (haagei, another favourite).
     
  10. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Those are some very nice plants. Some I haven't seen before that I like. I'm a big fan of Eriosyce and Coryphantha. I have a Coryphantha that I'm not positive on the species of. It's very pretty though.
     
  11. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    I finally manned up and purchased some cactus seeds. I realize that these are all difficult seeds to start, but they're some that I really wanted to have so if I fail, I won't be too upset, but if I succeed in growing some, I'll be very happy.
    I'm particularly interested in getting advice on growing the Turbinicarpus. I know that the growing conditions can be somewhat varying, so if it comes to some of the plants needing substantial different conditions, I'll probably just go with what the Turbinicarpus need since I will probably be growing all of these in seed trays together, just in areas sectioned off.

    I'm especially wondering about the potting mix composition I should be using, but advice on any of the conditions you could help me with would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    Here's a list of the plants I ordered.

    Astrophytum capricorne var Major

    Aztekium hintonii
    A. ritteri

    Obregonia Denegrii

    Pelecyphora aselliformis

    Turbinicarpus alonsoi
    T. swobodae
    T. pseudopectinatus
    T. klinkerianus
    T. polaskii
    T. lophophoriodes minimus
    T. bonatzii
    T. macrochele ssp. frailensis

    Uebelmannia pectinifera
    U. pectinifera crebispina
     
  12. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    As said, it depends on how you do it, but for me a mix with organic components would not work well if I would sow these species. I would use only (fired) cat litter, pumice, coarse sand, expanded vermiculite, perlite and similar materials.

    Sterilising the mix is a good idea.

    Not too high daytime temperatures, 25–30°C should suit these Mexican species well.
     
  13. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Do pumice and perlite have different properties that are both necessary for a better mix? I can't find pumice anywhere but what I've read is that they can be interchangeable.
    Or do you feel that they have different purposes?
    I'm going to try to find something similar to the fired cat litter that you describe if I can at some stores in the area. What is the asset of this ingredient though? It is necessary for occupying larger spaces?

    And how far should the light be from the plants? Will cacti become leggy if the light is not the right distance from the plants? Or are there any other things I should worry about concerning the grow lights?
     
  14. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Oh, and I apologize for asking a question you already answered before. I was very sleepy and was developing a nasty case of the common cold so at the time I just wanted to get out the question and get some rest with hopes of finding an answer when I woke up. Thank you for answering again anyway.

    Could I ask also, with the ingredients that you suggested for the plants I have, what would be a modest ratio of each part to accommodate the needs of the plants?

    And when sterilizing the mix, would you do that in the oven? does that leave a bad odor for a long time? I worry about bothering my family.
    Or is there an easier or "nicer" way of sterilizing the mix?

    Thank you.
     
  15. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I think they are far too different to be interchangeable. Perlite is brittle and forms dust both outside and inside the pots why I find it difficult to handle. It does not absorb water (in contrast to pumice), and I use it mainly to decrease the water-holding capacity of the mix. Pumice is useful as it holds both water and air without going anoxic as easily as organic mixes. It does not break down, so the soil structure remains intact. A peat-based mix breaks down with time and form a hard clump that is very difficult to rehydrate after the winter resting period, and also nearly impossible to remove from the roots if needed. Many growers (including me) don't like that, and the cacti don't seem to like it either.

    It has almost the same properties as pumice, but it is difficult for me to find pumice of the right size (about 1–3 mm), and the cat litter is much cheaper too. There is something similar in the US called Napa #8822 floor-dry or oil-dry or something like that. Its purpose is to absorb (nasty) liquids from floors. I have not seen it myself, but I have heard about it from cactus/succulent collectors in the US.

    Grow lights is a favourite subject on cactus forums :-). As cagreene indicated, fluorescent lights is enough during the first year or so, but much stronger light is needed for adult plants. My propagation box contains six T5 tubes placed 30 cm above the pots. While the seedlings are still very tiny I turn off some of the tubes or increase the distance, it might become too hot for them otherwise. Many growers install fans in their propagation boxes. And yes, cacti do stretch if the light intensity is too low. How easily they do that depends on the species. My Aztekium and Astrophytum have done well even when the light has been less than ideal, while my Lobivia stretch very easily.

    Depends much on the size of the material, temperature, humidity and pot size, and making a good mix is something you have to experiment with, I'm afraid. I have sown in pure cat litter, but I often mix in say 10–20 % vermiculite or sand (0.5–1 mm) and a small part (a few percent by volume) of fine sand (< 0.5 mm) to increase the water retention.

    But again, some people are able to grow cacti in mixes that looks like coffee grounds with perlite, it depends a lot on the other conditions.

    I do of course add fertiliser to the water, my mixes don't contain much nutrients.


    Again, this is something where the method varies among growers. Some do not treat the mix at all, but that does not work for me. Others soak the mix (in the pots) with a hydrogen peroxide or potassium permanganate solution. For larger volumes that should be used dry I fill a pan with the mix and heat it in the oven to around 150°C for an hour or two. I don't have anything heat-sensitive in my mixes, growers who have peat, coir or bark in their mixes or prefer to have the nutrients in the mix don't heat it as much. Microwave ovens are more useful for seed growing. I add water and cook it for 10–15 minutes. After cooling, I sow the seeds and water with a 8-hydroxyquinoline solution, which kills much of the fungi and bacteria that have survived or enters after sowing. Then I place the pots in a ventilated box. The ventilation holes are covered with screens to keep sciara flies out.

    And yes, sterilising in ovens (microwave or regular) is a bit smelly, and some growers use a separate microwave oven (in a "safe" area) for that purpose. but it is worse when the mix contains much organic material. And the odor has disappeared quickly, it is nothing like when I have accidentially overheated things in toasters and ovens.
     
  16. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Thank you so much for all your knowledge. It will not be unheeded in my quest of growing cacti from seed. :}
     
  17. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    I saw two kitty litters that seemed the most sensible to work for the potting mix, but I am still not sure if either is what you use.

    One had a single ingredient being Mordenite Zeolite. They looked like large cylindrical white-ish tan rat droppings. (I know it is a strange and gross description lol but it is all I've got.)
    They were clay pellets, but I wonder, do you know if this is the same mineral as the kitty litter that you use? Because I am sure there is some clay that would work and some that would be detrimental to the soil. They seemed like heavy and solid pellets.

    The other kitty litter I saw was was more rough round smaller pieces. Maybe even more-so comparable to the shape and size or perlite. This said unscented on it, and it had said that they were clay pellets, but it also had baking soda(sodium bicarbonate) in it and I worry that this could act as a sort of poison for the plant as well.
    Does the kitty litter you use have this in it? or are you fortunate to be able to find a completely plain bag of small clay pellets?

    Maybe if you have a picture of some of the seedlings you have, I would be able to see more what you mean? I understand it is a lot to ask. I just in case you had one of those pictures already. If not, feel free to tell me to screw off. ;)

    It's nothing you need to worry about if it is any work you'd have to do, and thank you again for all the help.
     
  18. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    The cat litter I use is not zeolite or clay but diatomaceous earth that has been solidified by heating it to high temperature, like brick but it is smoother and has smaller pores (like pumice). It has a pinkish colour. Many types of cat litter made of clay disintegrates when they have been in contact with water for some time (not good). I don't know exactly what the purpose of the sodium bicarbonate is, but I don't like it. Sodium salts is generally bad news, and I cannot see that bicarbonate would do any good either. It is not added to the type that I use. It is not perfumed either, but I don't think it is a problem if it is.

    I know that some growers use a kind of zeolite particles as growing media, but that is a product specially made for plant growing. I have not seen the cat litter type here, if it useful depends on if the particles are solid or aggregates of smaller particles that disintegrates easily. Even if they look similar, there are several different types of clay-based cat litters, and as long as they don't break down after a while they can be used for sowing, I have seen people do that. I have tried it once, and while the seedlings grew I not happy with the results, I have better options.

    Have you considered coarse sand? I sowed my Aztekium in pure sand. Fine sand is bad, it holds too much water and no air, but if the grains are big enough to provide the drainage it can be used.

    Here is a picture of a pot (6 cm diameter) with cat litter and a few pieces of pumice (large, more gray). It is wet and therefore darker than the dry product.
     

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  19. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    ok. That is helpful.
    I went to another store tonight that people online were saying they could find the napa #8822 at, but I only found a similar product which people were saying did not act as well in potting mix.
    I did find at a different store tonight a Melocactus matanzanus, which I was completely surprised to find. It had a cephalium growing already. I took it home and I'm hoping I'll be able to take care of it well.
    I'm going to go to a specialty store tomorrow that mainly sells hydroponic equipment, but I think I may be able to find a media that will fit the right criteria I need there. It is a good store. I was only there once to buy some lights but they had a lot of merchandise.
     

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  20. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Have you ever used horticultural charcoal at all? I feel that in principle it could be useful for this or in general for growing cacti. But I could certainly be wrong since I don't have much knowledge or experience with this topic.
     
  21. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Not horticultural charcoal, but other types of charcoal. I have added it to my mixes for adult cacti. I did not notice any particular effect, so I stopped using it. I think it would work for seed growing, but I have not tried it.
     
  22. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    It looks like a lot of people grow cactus seeds in fairly large pots in comparison to the seeds. Very deep I would think. Is there a container that is best for starting all seeds in? Or do certain genuses need a shallow container?

    You showed the picture of the 6cm pot, would that be a pot that you would use for a certain number of seeds? or also depending on the size of the seeds?

    Also, do you sterilized your containers before using them, and if so, how?
     
  23. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I sow all seeds (10–30 per pot) in pots 5–6 cm wide and about as deep, except for really tiny, slow-growing types with shallow roots (Aztekium), I sometimes sow these in 4 cm pots.

    Some cacti have relatively small, shallow, fibrous root systems, for example Astrophytum, Mammillaria, Echinocereus. Others, like Lobivia, Sulcorebutia, Lophophora, have long, deep roots or taproots. Their roots grow out through the bottom of my pots in 6–12 months, but then they are big enough to be transplanted to individual pots.

    Primitive genera like Maihuenia, Pereskia and many opuntioids grow much faster and have long roots. Especially Pereskia can be sown in bigger pots, I had to transplant my P. grandifolia just 1 month after sowing ...

    I typically just wash them with soap and water and spray them with methylated spirits. If I want to do a more thorough sterilisation I use hypochlorite bleach, hydrogen peroxide or permanganate solutions. Hot water vapour is another method, but the heat can deform or melt the pots, especially if they are made of polystyrene.
     
  24. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    Five days after I started some seeds in baggies. Sterilized the soil, thoroughly cleaned the pots, used distilled water. and Now I'm waiting. Pots under lights and above a heating mat. I'm ready for whatever is coming. So far I've got six Obregonia denegrii and three Pelecyphora aselliformis showing their selves off. Here They are. Strain your eyes and find the green dots. :}
     

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  25. Christopher Howard

    Christopher Howard Active Member

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    A Turbinicarpus bonatzii has also decided to show itself.
     

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