Acer palmatum 'Sherwood Flame'

Here is a few pictures of my Sherwood Flame. Just got this recently and it is still in pot. Planning to plant it in the ground next year. Pictures were taken in early spring.

 

I don't grow this cultivar myself but pictures I have seen in several books show a leaf shape completely different from that shown above. It is described as a matsumurae type which the one above is not. Anyone who grows it care to comment?

 

I agree with you Maf. Here is a pic of my 'Sherwood Flame', propagated by Esveld.

Gomero

 

I got it from OSH in California. I asked the nursery worker there when I brought it if it is a Fireglow, but she said it is a Sherwood Flame. I browsed online and found some pictures labeled as Sherwood Flame that looks like mine and some that looks like what Gemero just posted. Can someone clarify it?

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/266668/

 

I also agree with maf. This is our Acer palmatum Sherwood Flame.
This would seem to agee with "Japanese Maples" by JD Vertrees and Peter Gregory. 4th addition.

 

This is what I come across. Mine looks like the one being sold by Maple Ridge Nursery. I am not sure why everyone is having a different looking one from mine. So, anyone know what kind of JM I have? Thanks.

http://japanesemaplesandconifers.com/Acer_palmatum_Sherwood_Flame.html

From Iseli Nursery; http://www.iseli-nursery.com/photopages/AcerpalmatumSherwoodFlame.htm

 

Dewy, not sure which one it is, there are quite a few similar types. I will copy your messages to an I.D. thread in the main forum and move your photo's there too, might get a better response.

Edit: I did not leave a link to Dewy's photos. here it is :http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=62830

 

Thanks Maf. I like my tree and planning to keep it, but just want to know what kind of JM it is.

 

The attached pictures of my Sherwood Flame were taken in mid April. It's mid May now and the colors are much darker.

 

Plantoid, your pictures do not show the correct maple, the leaves should be divided entirely to the base. It seems your tree, like Dewy's, was mislabelled.

'Sherwood Flame' was selected by Mr. Will Curtis of Sherwood, Oregon, and it would be reasonable to assume that the major, long-established Oregon nurseries carry the original variety. Here are links to the entries for 'Sherwood Flame' at the websites of Buchholz & Buchholz, Forestfarm, and Greer Gardens Matsumurae Group slideshow (look on pages 77-79). (The Iseli website does not have a photo of the leaf shape.)

Thanks to Gomero and Silver Surfer for submitting pictures that show the correct leaf shape for this cultivar.

 

There are now so many maples, many are very similar. It just needs one nursery to send out a batch wrongly labelled and before you know it, the wrong name appears on many trees. From these incorrectly labeled trees, other people will take cuttings for grafts, and the mistake is perpetuated. Or worse, seed is collected, which will not come true, (be a clone of the adult,) as cross pollination has occurred.

I imagine that this is why J.D. Vertree wrote his book Japanese Maples, which has since been updated, and is now on the 4th edition. Many use this as a guide to what the leaves should look like, colour size and shape, whether the tree is tall and thin or low and spreading. Many of us on the maple forum use this as THE guide.

I suspect we have all had incorrectly named specimens, at some time. This is not to say they are not beautiful in their own right. What ever the name may be. You love it and can still get a lot of pleasure from growing it.

 

Completely agree. A couple of my own favourites came to me with the wrong labels and I am still not 100% sure what to call them after years of trying to find out.

 

As I mentioned in a similar thread last year, my "Sherwood Flame" was grown by Iseli. I bought it at East Bay Nursery in Berkeley, CA. East Bay has since received several more specimens of Iseli grown "Sherwood Flame" and every one of them looks exactly like mine (I checked just a few weeks ago). So at the very least, mislabeling of Sherwood Flame happens at Iseli.

I am still happy with my tree(my very first Japanese maple) , even if it may not be true Sherwood Flame. I like its fall coloration very much, but it would be nice to know what variety it is.

 

lol. Plantoid, you and I have alot in common. This is my first Japanese Maple, too. It was labeled as "Sherwood Flame" by Orchard Supply & Hardware. I even asked the nursery folks there to make sure it is not a Fireglow because that was the tree I was planning to buy. A neighbor of mine has a Bloodgood in his front yard and it is a beautiful tree, but a bit too big for my front yard. So, I did my research and found Fireglow to fit the bill. When I saw this SF, I thought it looks like a Fireglow, but they insist it is not.

Nevertheless, I love this tree. It is in a pot right now and plans to plant it in front of my house next year. Want to test if it can survive an Bay Area summer in full sun.

Thanks for everyone's input. I might bring a JM book next time I go shopping for another JM.

It is like someone sold you a Pug, but called it a Bulldog.

 

I sent an email message to Iseli's sale office alerting them to the mislabeling and expect them to investigate and report back to me. I'm not unhappy with my tree, but I do want an answer, especially considering the large sum I paid for this mature specimen. In fact I probably like this mislabeled specimen better than the true Sherwood Flame because mine seems to be brighter red, both spring and fall.

By the way, all the Iseli grown Sherwood Flames sold in the San Francisco Bay area have the same leaf shape as my specimen, that's 3 large nurserys in the Bay Area.

Dewy22, back in March of this year I saw a Sherwood Flame at my local OSH selling for $99 in a 10-gal. size. It was not grown by Iseli because it did not have the triangular shaped Iseli tag on it. My recollection is it had a leaf shape that is almost the same as that for Burgundy Lace and it was very dark burgundy, serrated and cut all the way to the base/stem of the leaf. It was not like the Iseli specimens.

I'm just speculating that Iseli interbred the real matsumurae type Sherwood Flame with an A. palmatum and labeled it "Sherwood Flame." You can see the deep serration characteristic of the matsumurae type and the fat finger characteristic of the palmatum type on the leaf shape of my Iseli "Sherwood Flame."

 

Plantoid, I kept the tag of my JM and it is just an rectangle OSH tag that said Sherwood Flame Acer Palmatum. So, I guess it is a mislabel since SF suppose to be matsumurae breed. I am calling it a hybrid, too, until someone can ID it.

 

Iseli's sales office didn't reply to my email message complaining about the mislabeling. I then went to East Bay Nursery in Berkeley, CA, where I bought my tree, to complain and again it fell on deaf ears. The part owner at East Bay sounded very defensive and said, "All the Sherwood Flames we've ever got always looked like that." He didn't even bother to look at the Sherwood Flames they had in stock to try to understand what I was referring to. He basically just brushed me away. It's a safe bet I will be spending a lot less at East Bay Nursery from now on.

 

I finally got a thorough and courteous reply back from Iseli, which is sticking to its gun that its Sherwood Flames are true to variety.

Iseli's reply offered the following possibilities as to why my "Sherwood Flame" has leaves that are not cut all the way to the base as reference books show:

1. There could be a difference between my young tree and a mature tree as to the degree of cut.(I'm not sure I agree with this because others on this thread have posted images from their young trees showing deeply cut leaves. The only way this could be true is the images that others posted here are of Burgundy Lace, explained in point 3 below. Silver surfer's specimen does look a little bushy and rangy compared to other Sherwood Flame pictures I've seen. It looks closer to Burgundy Lace would).
2. The deeply cut leaves shown in reference books are not representative of leaves from the whole tree from a true Sherwood Flame. (I also don't agree with this because I can not find a single leaf on my tree that is deeply cut to the base).
3. Reference books mixed up Burgundy Lace with Sherwood Flame and are showing Burgundy Lace as Sherwood Flame, i.e. Iseli is right and reference books and other nurseries showing deeply cut Sherwood Flames are wrong. (This is a possibility, but how likely is it? I don't know).

I don't know what to say, but maybe the experts can weigh in. But like the reply suggested, regardless of its true identity, it's a good tree and I enjoy it.



Quote of reply from Iseli:
Hi Stephen,
We look at maples with a very critical eye, and have been doing it for many
years. Concerning the ID of Sherwood Flame we can share the following.

The late Jean Iseli got our start of Sherwood Flame in 1977. We still have
an old specimen in the nursery landscape, it may be one of the oldest
verified specimens at 30+ year old.

The information for this cultivar can be checked in the various maple
reference books, in brief it was a seedling selection in the 1970's from
Burgundy Lace from nurseryman Will Curtis in Sherwood Oregon. We have
experience grafting and growing this cultivar as well as Burgundy Lace for
many years (30+) and believe that we have the correct ID. Sherwood Flame is
a moderate wide spreading tree with a sturdy branching pattern. It reliable
shapes up into a nicely branched small tree without the long willowy
branching habit of Burgundy Lace or other red uprights. The trunk and main
branch color is light compared with the typical dark color of for example
Bloodgood. It is an excellent durable moderate sized red leafed maple.

Leaf shape compared with photos of leaves from the 'experts'-
In the Maple reference written by van Gelderen a photo of Sherwood Flame
shows a branch spray of leaves divided nearly to the base of the leaf. I
collected a few branch sprays from our growing stock plus from the old
Sherwood Flame in the landscape and I can pick out a spray that looks nearly
identical to this photo but really most of the leaves on Sherwood Flame are
not as deeply divided as this photo indicates. Why are the leaf shapes
different than the photo? First of all there is variation in Acer leaves on
the same tree (juvenile vs. adult) and Sherwood Flame is no exception, the
leaves on SF are quite variable. Check out leaves on Red Pygmy or other
linear leafed clones to see extreme leaf variation on the same tree. A
number of questions can be asked about the photo in van Gelderen: is it the
same plant that we list as Sherwood Flame, is it the 'true' to type plant,
is it a photo sample that misrepresents the predominate leaf type, or is it
a misidentified photo of a different cultivar such as Burgundy Lace? It is
interesting to note that van Gelderen states in the description " In Europe
the two cultivars are in fact inseparable." This statement makes me
suspicious that perhaps what he considered Sherwood Flame was in fact really
just a Burgundy Lace. Both Burgundy Lace and Sherwood Flame are very
similar especially when young but they are quite different when scrutinized
and as they mature. Perhaps the mix-up is not Iseli or a few other Oregon
growers that have continued growing this selection.

The web is a great source of information but caution is advised on accuracy,
even printed reference material is not always completely accurate.

We discontinued Burgundy Lace many years ago after noting that the habit of
Burgundy Lace was inferior to Sherwood Flame.

Sherwood Flame has good red color for most of the summer but the purple red
color fades in the heat of late summer it does not retain red color as well
as Bloodgood or Fireglow but the leaf lobes are much more divided than
either of these cultivars. It is not a linear leaf type but the leaf lobes
are deeply cut. It is a great landscape tree, very durable with sturdy
branching and a moderate size. It is an all around great landscape tree. We
at Iseli have championed this cultivar with the hope that retail nurseries
would also see its value, excellent retail nurseries like East Bay Nursery
have been kind enough to carry our products including this cultivar. It
should grow beautifully in your region of California.

By the way all Sherwood Flame that we grow and sell are grafted, they are
clones or replicas of the original parent tree from Mr. Curtis.

Enjoy a great tree by whatever name you choose to use.

Best Regards,
Customer Service
Iseli Nursery

 

You have to respect Iseli for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, many nurseries would just junk your mail.

Plantoid, one thing I had considered re your tree, and also Dewy's, is that Oregon nurseries are known for "pushing" their plants with optimum growing conditions and high doses of fertilizer. Plants growing so vigorously can show non-typical foliage and may take a year or two in the landscape to settle down into a normal growth pattern; it would be interesting to see if leaves that are divided all the way to the base appear on your trees next year.

It begs the question of whether the spray in question that resembles the photo was the one from the "old Sherwood Flame in the landscape"?

 

I came upon a thread on Acer P. Oregon Sunset:

http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=6965

Some of the posted pictures there show deeply cut leaves, like Gomero's and Silver surfer's Sherwood Flames. Other pictures are not as deeply cut to the base, like my Sherwood Flame. So I suppose it's entirely possible to have Japanese maples behaving this way.

By the way what can I do about the big gap in the middle left side of my Sherwood Flame as seen in this picture:

http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81585&d=1274336932

Several branches died over the winter and now there is a big gap. Is there anything I can do to promote new branching to fill in that hole?

 

Let me tell you something that many of
you do not know - the late Jean Iseli was
one of the most influential people in Maples
in all of Oregon at one time. Arguably, even
more influential with these plants than Mr.
Vertrees was. No one talks about or even
asks any more who did Mr. Vertrees get
some or many of his Maples from. Several
of the Maples in the landscape at Roseburg,
Oregon, came from or through Mr. Jean Iseli.

So here we have an issue with the Maple that
Iseli nursery, one of the leading Conifer and
palmatum type Maple growing nurseries in the
country, is selling as Sherwood Flame. One
of the reasons I stay out of such threads is due
to if we tell someone that their Maple is not what
it was sold to them as being, then we had better
be prepared to tell them what we think the Maple
is. We do not have anyone qualified in this Maple
forum to do the latter. I am not sure there is anyone
in the world we can fall back on to be our resident
expert in the identification of the palmatum type
cultivars. We do have some knowledgeable
people as members of this forum that are pretty
darn well versed in their species forms however
but even then they can be fooled with a species
form plant or two on occasion.

If Iseli nursery can document that their source
Maple came from or through Mr. Curtis then
we have to yield to their calling their Maple a
Sherwood Flame. Now, we have to step back
from their plant and ask ourselves how did their
Maple change, so that it no longer looks exact
to the Esveld Maple that Esveld is selling and
could it be that the Esveld progeny Maples no
longer look exact to their old adult plant.

We have to take into consideration that the
old Sherwood Flame Maple in Boring, Oregon
may not look quite the same as the newer
put together plants in leaf shape. Growth
habit with the willowy upright shape of the
tree sure is in the ballpark but now we have
to have been able to see some adult plants
of this Maple grown elsewhere to know how
and if they are the same basic plant or not
without calling a most reputable nursery on
the carpet and stating that their Sherwood
Flame isn't a Sherwood Flame and then
asking them what it is then. Personally
I do not like the looks of the English Maple
and I have a 35 year old Sherwood Flame
about 100 feet from me as of this writing
to compare the leaf shape shown in the
photo to. It is my contention that if the
English source Sherwood Flame in England
did not originate with the Hillier nursery
then there may be some problems as to
the sourcing of the rest of the English
Sherwood Flame Maples. Why, because
I know who supplied the Sherwood Flame
to Hillier and to Esveld to be their source
Maple at a time when no one else in the
Netherlands and in England had access
to this particular Maple. So, we have a
starting point for all other Sherwood Flame
in the Netherlands and in England to have
come about from directly and indirectly.
Anyone else saying their Maple which
may have come from someone else at
a more recent time period becomes
suspect when compared to the old
Hillier and Esveld Maples. In other
words if I wanted another Sherwood
Flame from a European source I am
going to ask where did their source
Maple come from. With Hillier and
Esveld Sherwood Flame I do not have
to ask that question. I already know
the answer.

Sometimes we have to step back from
a plant and ask ourselves why is this
Maple different from mine or not the same
as the Maple I am used to seeing by the
same name. What factors could have
led to a change in the deeply divided
leaves still being divided about two
thirds of the way but not divided all
the way to the palm of the leaf any
more? Could the rootstock used for
this Maple over time have caused this
to happen? The answer is yes. Could
the rootstock used in the English plant
change how the serrations in the lobes
appear to their plants as compared to
my Maple? The answer is yes. So,
what we have are three different looking
Sherwood Flame based on leaf attributes
that all show in the photos some variance
in these trees and then we throw our hands
up in the air and try to judge which one is
the real Sherwood Flame. They all may
be except the one which led to start of the
thread.

The problem that can arise and we had it
happen in this forum a while back is when
a nursery in Oregon sells a Maple to a
mass merchandiser outlet with the wrong
label on the tree. I've seen some Sherwood
Flame labeled plants even come into a retail
nursery around here that were nothing more
than seedling Burgundy Lace. I've seen
the Bush form Fireglow come into some
mass merchandiser outlets with Sherwood
Flame labels on them. So, who do we rely
on to know the difference between the Bush
Fireglow from the Red Maple nursery Fireglow
and who has seen the Fire Glow in Europe
enough times to know how it differs from
the Bush and Wolfe plants and then know
how the Italian Fire Glow differs from the
Effigi Maple? Could it be that all of the four
named plants are different from each other?
Could it be that three of them are separate
red group members from the original Fireglow
Maple. I've had all four of them at one time
or another. I know what I think but to get me
to expound on them and explain my thoughts
may take some real doing for me to yield and
tell what I know in this forum. I am not willing
to do it any more. You "guys" can figure it out
on your own but you'll need access to see or
have all four plants from their respective sources
to do your point of contention any justice.

Look below in the Burgundy Lace vs. Sherwood
Flame thread from the links section sometime
and then ask me how great I am supposed to
feel about my knowing this issue has been
covered a long time ago. If you look in these
forums long enough you will see our Sherwood
Flame in silhouette in a landscape planting.
None of you have one that old and neither
does a host of nurseries selling that Maple
and now I’ll get to see again which nurseries
online want to sell their fresh and one year old
grafts using our photo in this forum of our tree
to promote their Maples, presumably but arguably
isn’t the same Maple as ours, for resale.

Jim

 

I have to addd to this about Iseli's Sherwood Flame, it may not be the same cultivar as others but it sure is an outstanding tree. I have found people really enjoy its color and structure. In my few years of touring around growers I am shock as to what all I have seen. Labels fall of trees and these guys just put on another label without really knowing what the tree is since they have hundreds in that row. .

 

Here are several photos of two different Sherwood Flames, the first three photo are from one grower and the last two are from a different grower. Neither grower is Iseli, I do not have their tree at this time.

 

I agree. And I'd like to add that while still a JM novice with only 64, that I have noticed the superior quality of Iseli trees. When browsing around retail nurseries I will sometimes see the same cultivar from two different originating nurseries. Consistently, when I or my husband look to see where the prettier or more correct version came from it is from Iseli. For that reason, I've been willing to pay more for a tree or even buy a tree leafless if it is an Iseli. And I tell my friends that and I've told the retail nurseries that as well.

Charlie, beautiful photos. Thanks for sharing.

 

Hi @Sumo and welcome. This is where you can find your cultivar and a good number of others by clicking the green tab above that say 'Acer palmatum cultivars'. You can also type it in the search tab and more results might come up.

Once yours get some sun it might red up like thes. I hope this helps.

Derek