2 needle or 1 needle pine?

Discussion in 'Gymnosperms (incl. Conifers)' started by petejacobsen, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. petejacobsen

    petejacobsen Member

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    I could use some help IDing this pine. The needles are about 4 inches long. Close to the tip of a branch (last two inches) they are uniformly single needles. Farther back, there are two needles in each papery sleeve.

    I've included some pics
     

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  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Where is it growing?
     
  3. petejacobsen

    petejacobsen Member

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    It is growing in Gilroy, California, about 30 miles south of San Jose. It is on a south facing hillside. There are at least two smaller trees of the same species (or at least characteristics) within 100 feet of it.
     
  4. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Pinus halepensis. A Mediterranean species naturalised in parts of CA.

    The "single" needles are pairs staying stuck together while they're still young, they'll split into pairs soon.
     
  5. petejacobsen

    petejacobsen Member

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    Michael,
    What is it about the pictures / words that help you id it as Pinus halepensis? I'm going to see the tree again in the morning, and I'll be looking closely at those single needles.

    Also, you used the word "naturalised" and I'm not sure of the meaning. Does this mean these trees now grow "in the wild" and self-propagate rather than needing to be planted?
     
  6. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Pete,

    Difficult to put into words, it is a species I'm very familiar with and recognised it even before clicking of the thumbnails. The overall crown shape, smooth, deflexed red-brown cones, smooth grey bark and fairly short, very slender needles are good pointers

    Yes; it may even be considered invasive (it is in some other areas with Mediterranean climates, e.g. South Africa lists it as a major problem invasive alien)
     
  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    These Aleppo Pines were originally planted in this
    area to help with watershed and soil erosion. These
    were not planted in hopes of dramatic reproduction
    as they have not reseeded themselves at the rate that
    other areas such as in the deserts have. Where these
    are located there is not enough year round heat to
    break open the cones well to liberate the seeds into
    the ground so they can imbibe water and germinate.
    These Pines were meant to be planted and left alone
    so in that case the use of the word naturalize does
    indeed apply here. There are also Pinus halepensis
    brutia
    - Calabrian Pine later classified as Pinus
    brutia
    as well as Pinus eldarica sometimes
    classified as Pinus brutia eldarica also planted
    in this area. All of these Pines have needles two to
    a bundle but it is the Eldarica Pine that I remember
    is the one that has the white stripe or band on the
    backside of the needle which distinguishes it from
    the Mondell Pine.

    The needles that may seem like only one are actually
    a pair in which the newest growth needles have not
    separated yet.

    Jim
     
  8. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Jim,

    The cone in the third whorl down on Pete's photo has opened, so it does get hot enough at least occasionally. That's quite normal for the cones to open slowly over a few years in the wild in the Med too, even in the absence of forest fires (which, like e.g. Knobcone Pine, is its main method of reproduction)

    Pinus brutia is now generally treated as a distinct species; the needles are nearly twice as long, and the cones stouter and forward-pointing, not reflexed down the stem. Pinus brutia subsp. eldarica (Eldarica Pine, Mondell Pine, Afghan Pine) is a subspecies of it. A useful ref.: Pinus brutia. Curtis's Botanical Magazine 16 (3): 173-184 (1999).
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    We are dealing with classifications that have
    changed around since I first learned of them.

    I am not offering a counter opinion of the
    Aleppo Pine. Yes, the cones will open up
    but they are so slow to do it. In other areas
    of the world this Pine can be invasive but
    here at this particular location the thought
    of it being invasive later was not even an
    afterthought at the time of their planting,
    even now. These are on a slightly raised
    hill right above a flood plain, that does
    indeed flood almost every year. The desire
    was to have a Pine used to root well and
    fast into the soil to limit the amount of soil
    erosion (some sheet and but mainly gullying)
    that had become a problem for a few years
    and was perceived at that time to be even
    more of a problem later.

    Personally, I do not agree that a Mondell Pine
    and an Eldarica Pine are the same. The original
    seed that came here were sold as Mondell Pine
    but that Pine has a green colored needle whereas
    the Eldarica forms have a blue-green needle,
    closer to a silvery blue in selected forms with
    the noticeable white stripe, as we called it, on
    the backside of the needle. The Mondell Pine
    will have slightly longer newest growth needles
    than a Eldarica will have. The growth habits
    are close to being the same and the cones are
    similar.

    Since we try to look at the whole tree and the
    Europeans pay more attention to the cones, we
    have a difference of opinion based on the
    physical characteristics that we are seeing from
    the tree itself. Which is why some of us believe
    that Pinus monophylla is correct and others feel
    it is just a form of Pinus cembroides edulis, now
    just Pinus edulis I believe. Then we have to deal
    with the fact that an Eldarica and Mondell Pine
    can look different here for color and in stature
    than in other growing locations, including Europe.
    Just like I'll see single needles on the old and
    youngest needles of my monophylla which cannot
    be happening in the mindset of many. The thinking
    is that there are two needles to a bundle originally
    and one is later sloughed off. That is not true with
    my form of monophylla but it can be true at times
    when Pinus cembroides edulis (how I learned it)
    is grown elsewhere. That is the whole problem
    in a nutshell. Who is right and who isn't? I also
    have the Piñon form that has four needles to a
    bundle.

    Jim
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Jim,

    I don't think that need be any more difference than the difference between e.g. green- and blue-foliage Picea pungens cultivars. Different cultivars fine, but the same botanical taxon (which is what matters to botanists!!).

    The four-needle pinyon is Pinus quadrifolia
     
  11. petejacobsen

    petejacobsen Member

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    Michael,
    You've used the terms deflexed, reflexed, and forward-pointing with respect to cones. Can you give me a little help with the meaning of those terms? You used "deflexed" in reference to my picture which shows the cones pointing back toward the trunk. Is that a correct understanding of the term?
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Pete,

    Yep, that's right. Deflexed and reflexed mean about the same - the cone is bent back so the narrow tip of the cone is pointing down the stem (towards the trunk). In my botanical glossary, 'reflexed' is "abruptly deflexed at a more than 90° angle", i.e., a more extreme version of the same.
     
  13. leafdesigner

    leafdesigner Member

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    The four-needle pinyon is Pinus quadrifolia[/QUOTE]

    I've always know P. quadrifolia as Parry Pinyon, an unusual species with 4 needles to the bundle. However, relatively recent research done by Dr. Ron Lanner, an expert on southern California pinyon pines, suggests that P. quadrifolia is very possibly the result of hybridization between singleleaf pinyon, P. monophylla (1 needle) and the rare Sierra Juarez pinyon, P. juarezensis (5 needles). He sites a number of "intermediate" characteristics in the Parry pinyons, such as leaf resin canal numbers, twig hairiness, and stomate position. Additionally, many of the so-called "4-needled" Parrys often have needles in bundles of 3 and 5 as well. To quote Lanner, "That variability can now be attributed to hybridization between singleleaf and Sierra Juarez pinyon, and trees neither purely one or the other can be collectively termed Parry pinyon, Pinus X quadrifolia."

    Matt
     
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Matt,

    The problem with that is that P. juarezensis can also be "rarely four-needled" and is not guaranteed free of hybrid influence too, so therefore P. juarezensis becomes a synonym of P. quadrifolia. That's the view taken by e.g. Farjon & Styles (Pinus, Flora Neotropica Monograph 75; see pp. 251-255). While I don't agree with every taxonomic decision in that book, I think they have this one right.
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Pinus monophylla is native in certain locales
    in California, so is Pinus quadrifolia. There
    are other forms, variants, of both Pines which
    can and has caused some "wild" discussions in
    the past out here and elsewhere. Even the
    taxonomic keys tend to lump the physical
    attributes, excluding the cones, of known
    Pines into groups in which they can be sorted
    out to an extent but to get into the nuts and
    bolts of the Pine, a history of that Pine becomes
    rather important to know. Yes, there is a form
    of Pinyon Pine that will indeed start out with
    two needles to a bundle and can slough off one
    of the needles which gives rise that it may be a
    monophylla to some people. In comparison
    to the form I have there is not a second needle
    to the bundle which dispels the notion that
    my Pine is the more commonly seen "single
    leaf" as seen in the Southern parts of our state.

    I believe Mr. Lanner's thinking that a natural
    form of hybrid occurring the wild did happen.
    I have seen some forms of Pinyon that will
    indeed throw out four and five needles to a
    bundle and will slough off one of them as
    the needles expand. The true form or at
    least what I was told several years ago of
    the Parry Pinyon is that the Pine will start
    out with four needles to a bundle and when
    the needles open up and expand they will
    remain as four to a bundle.

    It becomes a matter of who do we want to
    believe as interpretations from two opposite
    sides of the needle to a bundle equation can
    both be correct depending on whether the
    Pine is native, introduced, or is in fact a
    hybrid. The hard part is proving that
    hybridization has indeed occurred but I
    for one cannot rule it out based on some
    of the one, two, three and four needled
    Pinyons that I have seen.

    I always had my doubts that the five needle
    Pine, that sloughed off one of the needles
    and in some cases can also slough off two
    needles, is a Pinyon Pine.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2005

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