Tomato seedlings dying

Discussion in 'Fruit and Vegetable Gardening' started by SBinNW, May 22, 2009.

  1. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    I planted some Yellow Brandywine tomato seeds in April. All the seeds germinated really well, and I moved them into my very large and sunny south facing window. They continued to grow excellently developing their first set of true leaves and then the second set started to appear. Last weekend I noticed that they were looking a little crowded so I decided to transplant them into larger (3") pots with potting soil. At this same time I transplanted gypsy pepper seedlings and 2 kinds of basil (all of them with 2 leaf sets).

    I used the same technique for all the seedling types. I filled the pots with potting soil, carefully removed the seedlings from their tray and then placed them in the soil. One difference is that for the tomatoes I buried the stem up to the cotyledons but not for the pepper or basil. After transplanting I carefully watered each pot with diluted kelp fertilizer and placed them back into the exact same window.

    Four days later and the pepper and basil plants are doing great! They are all happy and starting to get their third set of leaves. All my poor tomato plants however are not doing so great. About a day after transplanting their cotyledons started turning yellow and some even fell off. Now most of the plants' first leaves are wilting from the edges and yesterday I noticed patches of white discoloration. The soil is still moist and the sun has been great the past couple of days, but still no improvement.

    What did I do wrong? and is it too late to save my seedlings? I'll be ok with scraping them all, but I'd like to know what to do differently for next year.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Sometimes when you try to plant deep you can leave an air space between the roots and the soil. The roots dry out and you have a disaster.

    I usually deep plant and carefully water the hole closed with plain water.
    I don't use fertiliser at all at that stage as the roots have some damage from the "trip".
    You could peek in there with the point of a pencil to confirm that you have firm contacts with the roots.
    If it's not that them I am stumped.

    Bob
     
  3. Acoma

    Acoma Active Member

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    Bob is right. Also, don't bury additional stem after the first transplant when you only have the 2nd set. You need to be a little more patient. You can stimulate the roots upon transplanting by dipping them in correct solution, or applying the solution, diluted with water upon planting. Remember, be patient and time transplanting right. There is a minor shock to them with each transplant.

    Are the new plants just showing shock or all wilted and near death? You only had your first true leaves right? I would say that you transplanted too soon.
     
  4. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    Thanks for the replies Bob and Acoma. All of the seedlings had their second set of true leaves (4 in total plus 2 cotyledons) before I transplanted them. One was a little smaller than the rest and it is now almost completely wilted - probably too early to transplant this guy. The rest of them have discoloration and wilting of their first leaves and cotyledons, but their second leaf sets are looking good and may have even grown a bit since I transplanted. Perhaps there is still hope for them yet.

    Next year I'll skip the early deep planting and wait until the seedlings are much larger.

    Thanks again guys!
     
  5. sal85901

    sal85901 Member

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    two things come to mind.

    First, I water my starts from below to keep the planting mixture fluffy. Waterig from above seems to pack the soil some.

    Second, the newer windows are more energy efficient and do not let in the amount of sun rays that many vegetable plants seem to need.

    Hope they are recovering!
     
  6. Acoma

    Acoma Active Member

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    Sal, what you do works good too. SB. I agree that you can wait a little before doing this transplant to the outdoor. If you can transplant to larger containers slowly, with continued warmth, earlier in the months, then....go to the ground with a stronger root support for the soil. As for watering, ya, go with a moist soil to the area you are going to plant. I do that, and I go deep soaking. Deep meaning lots of water soaking the soil way down. I do a deep soak in my area every 3 days, whether young or more mature. I then water more lightly (about an inch depth worth) every day. I notice that this keeps the young roots and older roots going strong. This has also allowed the plants to adjust and flourish. I use my moisture meter every couple days to test moisture level throughout the area. I am not the expert Durgan is, but I am doing well with my garden none the less. Timing of soil warmth, outdoor temps (night and day), and sunlight, as well as nutrients add up to great gardening.
     
  7. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    Thank you again for your words of advice. You've both definitely raised some points I never considered (esp. the windows - ours are >25 years old but we are thinking of replacing them soon).

    It seems that watering from below is key to keeping the soil fluffy and not suffocating the roots. This will be something I stick to from now on. It's very humid here on the westcoast (typically 60-90%) and I don't water my seedlings daily - worried about overwatering. I've noticed that the soil outside gets much drier than the soil in my pots, so when I do transplant outside I'll be watering daily and will try the deep watering as you suggest.

    Speaking of transplanting outside, how long should I wait between transplants (either pot to pot or pot to ground)?
    Rest assured I'll be waiting until my seedling tomatoes have recovered before I even think of moving them. But I have some pepper plants, basil plants and some store-bought tomato plants that I all recently transplanted into bigger pots. The weather here is starting to warm up and I hope to get them in the ground in a few weeks. Would this be too soon? How long do plants take to recover from transplant shock?

    Thanks again.
     
  8. monkeydog

    monkeydog Active Member

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    Once I move seedlings from their starters into larger pots, I usually give it about 3 weeks before I move them into the ground. I start all my seeds outside on the porch, so that time frame depends of course on the weather and how fast they are growing.

    If you move a 2 inch seedling into a 3 or 5 inch cup, wait until the plant is anywhere from 4 to 6 inches tall. Then pick up the cup and see if any roots are coming out the bottom. If any roots are visible coming out the holes in the pot, then it should be a good time to transplant into the earth. The plant should be strong and will withstand the transplant.

    Keep in mind, you don't want the plant root bound in the cup, but you want it to have a good foundation, you know? If your dealing with plants a bit further along, I would simply give them a few weeks and make sure that they have done some growing and are looking healthy and they should withstand the transplant just fine. Give them plenty of water and don't do it in the heat of the day. Glad to hear your little brandywines appear to be improving!
     
  9. Acoma

    Acoma Active Member

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    Monkeydog is one to lean on with this as well. SB, remember to study the plant growth above too. Once you learn the growth above, you learn the roots pace below. Hope this makes sense. Also, get a moisture meter to help you learn the depth that water penetrates until you get to know your soil and plants well. Young plants have roots near the surface, needing more frequent light watering. The older plants need less watering, but deeper. This is why I do both when I have a mixture of new and older in my garden. I deep soak every few days for the deeper roots in the soil, and every day that I don't deep soak I do a light watering to allow the younger roots to establish. I also do this at 6am when the soil is cool and the water penetrates more naturally. Once they all are well established I deep water every few days and that is good enough.
     
  10. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    Wow, what great advice. Thank you so much again.

    I'll see how my plants are after 3 weeks and determine if it would be a good time to set them in the ground. All of them seem to be happy and continuing to grow (yes even the nearly dead brandywines!). Also, the morning watering is what I have been striving for. As a matter of curiosity, what method of watering do you typically prefer? by hand? drip? sprinkler?
     
  11. Acoma

    Acoma Active Member

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    I have to use hose. I water it all around to moisten the soil. I then go back all over and spray until it puddles everywhere. I repeat the spray until I know the water has fully soaked down low. This takes practice. I have yet to experiment with the soaker, drip, sprayer. I know with practice one can perfect its use for their garden. I like the hose because it take 10+ minutes on a deep soak day, and 5 minutes on light days. I get to observe the growth and issues too.
     
  12. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    Just thought I'd let the forum know my brandywines all pulled through and I just put them in the ground yesterday. Roots looked really healthy, each plant has multiple pairs of leaves (minus the cotyledons that all fell off after my deep planting mishap), and are about 8 inches tall. They are a bit behind all my other tomato plants, which I planted a few weeks ago, but I'm hoping with the continued hot weather they'll be able to catch up.

    I also picked up a moisture metre and it's been fantastic. I'm usually prone to overwatering, so the metre's made a big difference, especially with my tomatoes. I'm already getting small tomatoes and peppers appearing on the larger/older plants. My relatives in Alberta are so jealous!
     
  13. comradea

    comradea Member

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    Hi, SB, I just saw this now... and am glad your brandywines pulled through (I think that's really a good term... I can see the little guys wrestling and winning the battle)... I just want to share my little incident...

    a few weeks ago I got one Roma seedling from IGA... the strongest one there... to join my one Yellow Pear, 2.5 Earliana, and two Sweet 100... I am not that experience but just trying them out after the total flop last year and figure things can't be worst...

    At that time the Roma was in the best form among all the seedlings... with only the Yellow Pear (also from IGA) following closely... I was busy so I stupidly cut slits in the cup and soak it in 1 inch of water with a bit of soil and Starbucks in it... It was fine for a couple of days... Then I trasplanted it into a 6" pot...

    Half manure + half soil from my yard (which I later determined to be on the clayish side)... and in it goes... all my other transplants seemed OK... but the Roma was stunted... didn't grow, horizontally or vertically, and after a few days leaves started yellowing, from bottom up... After cutting off 2 stems of leaves which have turned completely yellowed, I found the yellowing moving upward yet more... so i cut of the end leaves of each stem...

    After all that sun we got in the last couple of week, and manure tea for the last 2 days, the yellowing seems to have stopped where it was... and there are some ever-so-slim new leaves coming out on top... and itsy-bitsy of suckers on a couple of crotches... Aha ! Signs of life again !!

    So I am just going to feed it manure tea from bottom for the next few days... Hopefully the leaves can start fattening up... and then it will be on track again...

    Which brings me to the issue of how big the seedling should be before you transplant it... I believe that with the risk of shock like in my case... I would've lost 4 stems (2 pairs) of leaves... and if my seedling wasn't over 8" and with at least 4 pairs around, it wouldn't have enough leaves left to keep itself alive after losing that many to shock... and I was only moving it from the 2 incher starter to a 6" pot... When the baby is 16"-18 " and the trunk fattened up, then I'll send it either to ground or a 5 gallon bucket...

    So it boils down to a safe margin should things go not so smoothly... Might be worth thinking about next time...

    Best of luck to all our tomatoes !!
     
  14. Acoma

    Acoma Active Member

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    Anne, cool it with the tea. You don't want to overdose the plant when it needs a balance of growth and production at this point in the year around your area. I say to do so once a week with the tea. Allow the plant to produce by stimulated tea and moist soil. Leave the suckers for now to allow more photosynthesis. Once the plant is healthy and balanced, then control suckers. SorrySB but all people need answers to all threads. Hope your plants are growing well.
     
  15. SBinNW

    SBinNW Member

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    Thanks for your story Anne. I've never used manure tea, but I hear a lot of people are using it these days. I've tried to stay away from manure in general and have left my garden soil pretty natural except for some mushroom litter and compost. As far as liquid fertilizers I've stuck with seaweed (at transplant) and fish emulsion (every 10-14 days).

    I left my store bought tomatoes (early girl, sweet 100, yellow pear, husky red cherry, green zebra) in their original small containers for way longer than I initally intended to. I bought them way too early and the weather was still too cold to set them in the ground. I kept them watered and treated them to a seaweed drink about a week and a half after I bought them. They looked perfectly fine in their teeny tiny pots, but I knew I should transplant them to a bigger pot before I set them in the garden. For re-potting I just used 100% regular potting soil in 6" pots and watered them with dilluted seaweed fertilizer. After that they litterally took off - lots of new growth and some even started to flower. When the weather finally warmed up and I could put them in the ground I followed pretty much the same procedure as re-potting except I threw in a handful of bonemeal in the bottom of the hole. Now, 2 weeks later, my tomato plants (aside from the brandywines) are the envy of the block. They're all flowering away and the sweet 100 and husky cherry have small tomatoes on them already (I thought the early girls would be first!). I fed them with diluted fish emulsion yesterday (their first fertilization since transplanting) so we'll see if they continue to grow happily.

    I'm am by no means an expert on manure, but I believe it has a very high nitrogen content and too much nitrogen (like too much of anything) can stress a plant. That's one of the reasons I shy away from using it and stick to using liquid fertilizers with which I feel I can control the amount of nutrients more acurately. I also agree with Acoma that intense fertilization is only required every 1-2 weeks.

    Good luck with your tomatoes!
     

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