Dying Bearss lime tree

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by zero10, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    (sorry this is so long!)

    I received a Bearss lime tree for christmas (early, I have had it just over 3 weeks now) and I am becoming very worried about how it is progressing. I have this Bearss lime tree, which is ~18-20" tall and in a 1 gallon pot, and also a 24-30" tall Meyer Lemon tree in a 3 gallon pot. Both are growing side-by-side in the pots and soil they came in from the greenhouse (looks like it is mostly pine bark and gardening soil). They are both under a pair of 4' T5 fluorescent grow lights and have an east facing window they receive sunlight from in the mornings. The room they are in is kept at 24-26*C all the time. I allow both plants to dry for the top 2-3" of soil before watering and I only water until it begins to flow from the bottom of the pot then stop. Both plants had a __VERY__ bad aphid problem, but after treating them with a spray of soapy water morning and night every day I can only find 1-2 aphids on the lemon tree after searching for over 10 minutes, and can't find a single one on the lime tree. Once I am convinced the aphids are gone I will stop adding soap to the water I spray them with, but will continue misting them to keep the humidity up since my house is quite dry. On the second watering I added some miracle grow to the water at the recommended dosage for "monthly fertilizing", I really have no idea if this is smart or not, but it seemed to be at the time.

    This has served the Meyer Lemon tree extremely well, as it has flowered and fruited all over (literally, 100+ flowers and 50+ baby fruit), really, it is spectacular and smells amazing. However, the lime tree has gotten worse every single day. I am hoping somebody can help me since this appears to be a lot more than just winter leaf drop.

    If a picture would help I will find a way to post one, but for now I will describe the symptoms.
    When I received the lime tree the plant was divided into 3 "sections". One side was completely bare and looked to have been recently pruned. All of the branches were 4-6" long, nice and green in color, but completely devoid of leafs. The middle section is quite tall, had long stems with light green (with yellow patches) leaves that have dark green veins in them and nice green stalks, while the other side of the plant was shorter, and had VERY dark green leaves. The branches were brown and woody up until about 4-6" from the end where they showed their green color.

    After receiving it all of the branches with the light green leaves have done nothing at all. All of the bare branches have done nothing at all. All of the branches with the dark green leaves have flowered, then dropped nearly all of their leaves. There are about 7-10 branches each 6-10" in length and between them all there are about 10 leaves, where there used to be 100+. All of the leaves that have dropped are still dark green when they drop and they leave the leaf stems behind when they drop.

    This has me really concerned that the plant is headed for big trouble, but as these are my first citrus trees I am afraid to do almost anything to them. I have done lots of reading on here and this does not sound like winter leaf drop. This sounds like a nutrient or mineral deficiency. I suspect this plant has been in its existing pot for a long time since the soil is well compacted and solid, but it is showing no signs at all of root rot. My plan at this point is to find a larger pot (since 1 gallon does seem too small for a plant of this size) and to re-pot it in a 3 gallon with a mix of 50% perlite and 50% sphagnum peat moss (I have seen this recommended elsewhere for citrus trees), but I am afraid that making these changes to a plant in this condition will be the death of it.

    Please, any advice you can give me would help so much. What should I do? Am I on the right track? Would you guys like some pictures of the problem, would that help?
     
  2. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    First lets discuss the soap spray you have been apply day and night. Soap is one of the oldest "insecticides" available for use by homeowners. Soap sprays work to control insects by removing their waxy cuticle, causing them to desiccate and die. Soaps don't work quickly, but they do tend to work well, especially against soft-bodied insects such as aphids and mealybugs. Also, it's true that the more effective a soap spray is at getting rid of insects by dissolving the insects waxy cuticle, the more effective it will be at also taking the cuticle off of the plants leaves. Plants that have strong soaps, or frequently repeated soap sprays, applied to them may be damaged.

    As far as determining any suspected mineral deficiency that your tree might have, it depends if the symptoms are occurring on the tree's new or old leaves. An iron deficiency symptoms show up on the NEW leaves showing green veins on otherwise yellow leaf (NO GREEN BORDER AREA AROUND THE VEIN)

    Manganese deficiency also appear on the tree's NEW leaves showing much the same symptoms as an iron deficiency except WITH GREEN BORDER AREAS TO THE SIDES OF THE VEINS.

    Zinc deficiency looks like manganese (green veins with green borders) on the NEWEST leaves BUT on substantially dwarf leaves.

    Magnesium deficiency appears on the OLDER leaves. Lower center portion has a green delta coloration, with tips and sides remaining yellow.

    All this said, without a picture, or seeing the tree, it is not possible to give a full intelligent answer, but I hope this helps in some manner. I will say after reading your post, I would give your tree a 30 percent chance of recovery. - Millet
     
  3. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    Oh dear, that is bad news indeed. You have me quite worried. After sitting here watching it die I decided I had to do something. Last night I re-potted it into a slightly larger 12" (instead of 10") pot using fresh soil. I removed all of the loose soil from the roots that I could and inspected it for any signs of rotting roots while rinsing off the outside layer of dirt from the roots. I found nothing obviously wrong with the roots. The soil it is planted in is a combination of sphagnum peat moss and perlite with "trace minerals", although the bag was vague about which ones. It was the best combination I could find, and it was recommended for both tropical and citrus plants specifically.

    I have managed to get a picture of the leaves up on the internet and have linked it below:
    http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4258/10024231qs9.jpg

    *EDIT* In the picture, the yellow leaves with green veins are pretty obvious. To the right those dark green ones are the leaves that are dropping. They dropped all over the tray underneath the lemon plant, but I turned the lime tree to get a better picture of it.

    From your descriptions of the issues it sounds like a lack of iron is causing the problem. I am hoping that this new soil will provide enough minerals for the plant, but I would still appreciate any commonly available (in canada) suggestions for something else to add. Looking back at the pictures I have, the leaves looked this way the day I picked it up, over 3 weeks ago, and since one side of the plant was bare I think this has been happening for some time.


    As for the soapy water, I am adding about 15-20 drops of dish soap to 0.5L of water as recommended by a friend of mine. I will admit this friend knows nothing about citrus trees in particular but they told me (and I blindly believed them) that it would not harm any leaves in this concentration but would cure the aphid problem, as they grow many other sorts of indoor plants. It has done wonderfully for the aphids but I am now worried it has been part of the demise of my lime tree. I was told at the time this is the gentlest solution for the plant, and that commercially available insecticidal soaps would be even harder on the plant.

    Please, any further advice you have would really be appreciated. I hope I haven't contradicted myself too many times here, I just got home from work and reading comprehension is slightly beyond me right now.
     
  4. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    After seeing your tree, the tree does not look as bad as I had pictured from your description. I doubt that the tree is lacking iron, as any fertilizer that also contains trace elements will have iron as one of it elements. However, it does look like the tree is deficient in magnesium (Mg), in fact both trees look to be deficient in magnesium. Mix one tablespoon of Magnesium Sulfate (common Epsom Salts) to 1 gallon (3.8 l) of HOT water, apply cooled mixture to the trees once every two weeks until symptoms disappear. Very few fertilizers, even fertilizers that include trace minerals, add magnesium to their product. You will need to apply magnesium to your tree three or four times a year. Keep the root zone warm, do not over water, fertilize and your tree should have a fairly good chance. Citrus are very resilient trees, when properly taken care of. When you water the tree, water the tree well, so that at least 10 percent of the water that you apply to the soil surface drains out the bottom of the container. Lastly, It is a good policy to flush the container once or twice a year to remove any soluble salts that build up in the growth medium. Good luck to this tree. - Millet
     
  5. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    The situation is very bad on 2 sections of the tree, where it is dropping the dark green leaves, but yeah, the middle section looks good as far as leaf drop goes. I am holding out all the hope I can for this little plant. Interesting you mention the lemon could be deficient in magnesium as well, I'll treat both plants together just to be safe.

    So far the plants are not going through a gallon of water every 2 weeks between them both, so I'll scale down the amount a bit and let you know how it goes. Will I know relatively quickly if this is working, or will it maybe take months for the leaves to appear better?

    With the quantity of soap I am using, have I put this plant in any danger? Is it safe to repeatedly treat with this mixture? I have been misting them with it every day for 10 days now trying to keep these stupid aphids away.

    I am being very careful not to over-water the plants. I am using a combination of a moisture meter and my fingers to try to figure out when the soil is properly dry for the top 2-3 inches before I water them and I am watering until water begins to come out the bottom. Maybe not 10% but I can always change what I was doing. I have tested and the roots are warm, about 20*C and the air temperature in this room is 25-26*C throughout the day. This is my computer room so I just made them all run the world community grid client to keep the CPUs loaded up, and it keeps the room nice and warm.

    Thanks for the advice, and sorry for asking so many questions.
     
  6. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    Here, I have taken some more recent pictures. Hopefully this will emphasize the dire situation of this lime tree. Looking back at that picture earlier, it kind of gives the wrong impression, sorry.

    http://e.imagehost.org/0082/100_2427.jpg
    http://e.imagehost.org/0215/100_2428.jpg

    There is the lime tree as it sits right now, tonight. There is a massive patch (basically the whole bottom, with all of its branches) where it is dropping all of its leaves. Only part with leaves that are staying is up top, and we are talking about 30-40 leaves on a plant that should probably have 300-400.

    Here is the whole tree:
    http://e.imagehost.org/0617/100_2429.jpg

    Here is a close-up of some of the yellow/green leaves on it as they sit right now:
    http://e.imagehost.org/0918/100_2433.jpg


    For comparison, my lemon tree (its about 1 year older from the looks of it):
    http://e.imagehost.org/0524/100_2430.jpg
    Flowering all over, only a few yellow leaves. I think this plant needs some fertilizer but is otherwise very healthy. Has many fruit on it that are now 1-2cm in size. If only my lime tree could live up to its big brother :) I don't want to complain about my lemon tree since I think it is doing well, but in such a negative thread I have to be positive about something, so I threw in a good picture.
     
  7. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    I just wanted to post an update on this little tree. I finally tracked down a relative who had some epsom salts and applied them last night at around 11PM (about 24 hours ago now). In the last 24 hours all of the "barely hanging on" leaves on the lower branches have become solid and the yellow middle section leaves have changed from yellow with green veins to light green with dark green patches in the middle. I couldn't believe it. I gave every leaf on the lower branches a little wiggle to see if they were attached (before the pressure from a misting bottle was knocking leaves off) and they are all on solid. Well, all 7 of them. Good news is the middle section looks almost perfect. I can hardly wait to see what another 24 hours does for it!

    Thanks a bunch for the advice! Pictures will come when the tree has recovered a bit. The color balancing in my camera will make the changes very difficult to see.
     
  8. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Zero, looking at your pictures, I noticed the growth medium that your Lime tree is growing in. If I see properly, the medium looks to be almost pure potting soil. Potting soils are normally made up of pure peat moss with a little perlite blended in. If indeed this is the medium you are using, that medium will soon cause your tree a lot of trouble. Trees grown in 100 percent commercial potting soil (the type purchased from a retail nursery), commonly have a life span of two years or less, because that type of medium compacts and degrades with each watering. As the medium compacts, the soil oxygen content diminishes, the soil carbon dioxide (released by the roots) increases, and the water remains MUCH to long in between waterings. A typical good citrus medium is make up of approximately 4 parts pine bark chips, or CHC (coconut husk chips) and one part peat moss (or potting soil). Another good medium for citrus is 3 parts bark chips, one part peat moss (or potting soil), and 1 part COARSE sand (concrete sand). Take care. - Millet
     
  9. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    Interesting! I had previously been told the proper mix was 1 part perlite to 1 part sphagnum peat moss. That is what is in the pot, but when I got to the end of the bag I put a bit of left-over peat moss on top to finish off the bag, so the top part looks a little bit off. Let me see about re-potting that tree shortly. Not like soil is expensive and if it keeps my tree alive it is a worth-while investment. I don't think there is anywhere local I can find coconut husk chips right now, but maybe the pine bark chips will be easy to find. You mention coarse sand like for concrete. Does it matter where the sand is from (i.e. if I end up buying a big bucket full of sand for concrete will it be treated with something funny and kill my plant)?? Right now the tree is making an amazing recovery so I will have a couple of days to sort out the things I will need for it. I just started a new job in addition to being a full time university student so it may take me a couple days to get around.

    Thanks for the advice!
     
  10. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    Thought I should post an update to this:
    After adding the epsom salts the color of the leaves on the tree improved for a couple of days, then it got worse again. I found that the color would improve in the evening and look the worst in the mornings. I had applied the epsom salts mixture a total of 3 times to the plant, during this time the lime tree continued to drop its leaves until only 2 remained, then it sat nearly bare for a short while. I was certain it was going to just keel over and die at this point, but after about a week of this some little sprouts started on the side where it first started dropping leaves. It has grown 4 new branches with ~30 leaves between them. At first everything was great with these, but now some of the new leaves have developed a problem.
    They started off really glossy and green, but 4-5 leaves have now turned a yellowish shade. The veins in the leaves are nice and dark green, but in between the veins they are also developing yellow spots.
    Here is a picture to show what I am talking about:
    http://g.imagehost.org/view/0389/100_2576

    I have not yet re-planted the lime tree as I am trying to track down the correct soil to plant it in. Many garden centers around here have scaled back or shut down for the winter so it is proving a little bit tricky. Would an orchid mix be good enough for this tree? It is mostly fir bark and charcoal, I am far from an expert but the guy at the garden center said it would be perfect for a citrus tree.

    Please help, what is going wrong with this tree?
     
  11. squirrelmaniac

    squirrelmaniac Active Member

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    The tree looks very healthy! The yellow spots are normal. the fact that it has new buds shows it is a much happier tree! You definitely need to re pot soon though!
     
  12. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Orchid mix is generally a good medium for citrus. I would offer just one caution. Depending on the grade of orchid mix, the drainage can sometimes be very rapid. Rapid draining is beneficial, as a rapid draining medium also provides good aeration for the root system. However, if the medium drains too fast, the fast pass through does not allow enough time for the medium to absorb enough of the water. If this is the case, then just soak the entire container in the irrigation water (with or with out fertilizer) for 1-2 minutes. Your tree looks to be rather healthy. New citrus leaves always have a light green coloration at first, this is normal. They darken in a month or so. I notice in the above thread that you added Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) three times. Magnesium is a trace mineral, therefore your tree does not require much of the element. I would only add Epsom Salts with every third or fourth fertilizing. The best to you and your tree. - Millet (1,394-)
     
  13. squirrelmaniac

    squirrelmaniac Active Member

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    Millett- One of my trees is starting to show signs of iron deficiency. I like the fertilizer that i currently use, but it doesnt have trace elements like the old one i used to use. Is there a product you recommend to add the extra minerals?
    By the way, my two lemon trees which i started from seed 9 yrs ago bloomed for the first time this year!
     
  14. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Squirrelmanic, congratulations on getting your lemon trees from seed to maturity. I've grown citrus from seed, and know the pride when the trees begins blooming. The average life span of a container citrus tree is just 2 years (the fault of the grower, and not the tree), therefore you are certainly to be congratulated. There is a trace mineral package called STEM (Soluble Trace Element Mix), but is is not all that easy to find, as it is sold as a professional amendment, and not retail. Google it using the words: Soluble Trace Element Mix, you will find a lot of information. Here is one link: http://scottspro.com/_documents/tech_sheets/H4078STEM.pdf

    It might be easier to just purchase a fertilizer that already contains all the trace elements. When you add iron to a citrus tree, add it through the root system, and not by foliar spray. Iron is toxic to citrus leaves, and can cause a burn. - Millet (1,392-)
     
  15. squirrelmaniac

    squirrelmaniac Active Member

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    Thank you for the information Millett, i'll try to track that down!
    Yes my trees are a great source of pride for me! I cant wait until my younger tangerines and key limes mature!
     
  16. zero10

    zero10 Member

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    Thanks for the tips guys. I will head out to grab 2 bags of the orchid mix this coming weekend and re-pot the lemon and lime trees into it.
    I am worried about the 2 year average life-span but I am going to do my best to beat the average figures :) I would like to see some full sized fruit from both of my trees and I will treat them as well as I possibly can to help ensure this happens.
    I think I mis-understood how to treat the deficiency and over-treated it with epsom salts. I have not added any for better than a month now and I'll keep to your recommended schedule going forward. Hopefully this hasn't hurt the tree.
    The green veins on the existing leaves have gotten slightly worse but the color of the leaves look much better now as well. There are some new leaves coming in (yay! another new branch) and they do not show any discoloration so I think the tree has recovered now. I'll be keeping a close eye on it for any changes. As of right now the tree has about 50 leaves on it and 20-30 flowers that are just beginning to turn to fruit.


    The last time this happened I don't think I properly understood how to get this lime tree to produce fruit. It produced ~100 flowers, and from that maybe 25 baby fruit, all of which grew no bigger than 1-2cm and then they all dropped off, one by one. I know that a tree this size should produce one, maybe 2 fruit at a time, but I was not sure the best way to remove the others. I read that the tree will select the fruit with the best chance of survival and drop the others, meaning I should just leave it alone and it will produce fruit, but I am not convinced that is the best way to go as this method failed on both my lemon and lime trees. When is the best time to pick off some of the baby fruit, and how should I select which ones to pick off? Thanks for all the help so far, hopefully I don't have too many more stupid questions :)
     

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