High density Grape Vine Planting Strategy- Please Comment

Discussion in 'Grapes and Grape Vines' started by Ottawa-Zone5, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    My first planting experience of grape vines was in the spring of 2008 so I am a beginner.
    I am thinking of planting this coming spring many grape vines in a small area in my backyard and grow these like small single trunk trees with (heavy) head pruning, leaving a few grape bunches on each vine (tree) when mature. The idea is that the root system of each vine will attend to a few bunches; this compared to a vine spread wide over a single or double T-bars. The draw back I see is the fewer number of leaves for photosynthesis but then the plant will be kept pruned and small. The other point is the root competition for nutrients and moisture but then these will be shared by the root systems.
    Where is the real drawback of this kind of strategy?
     
  2. Wolvie150

    Wolvie150 Active Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Ottawa - Zone 5,
    The problem I see, and I'm not super experienced in this from a personal side, is the synergy of everything. My concern would be the fewer leaves require more nutrients, but with tighter, packed roots, I become concerned. I would worry about drainage to avoid root rot, and then NPK burns from replacing those nutrients, weather organic or not.
    The first thing I would do would be a soil test with your local (K-State I'm guessing) research center. With their help, you can plan the correct mixture amendments for your soil to achieve the correct initial pH, loaminess, and nutrient mixture. Also, thy might have some experienced Master Gardners dealing with grapes from that side of the state. (I'm in Lawrence, which is why I assumed KS.)
     
  3. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Ottawa.... Yes a friend of mine took a bus going to Ottawa when returning from South Carolina and ended up at Ottawa K-state instead of Ottawa Ontario. I am planning this in Ottawa Ontario Zone 5 (with Zone 4 & 5 varieties).
     
  4. Ralph Walton

    Ralph Walton Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denman Island,BC
    This may be similar to some apple plantings I've seen in the Okanagan where from a distance they look like a field of tomato plants, 3-4 feet high and very close together. The field equipment straddled the rows. Like this:
    http://www.baumschultechnik.de/bild.php?prod_id=1976&sizex=440&sizey=520

    We are planted (probably wastefully) at about 1000 vines per acre (8' rows and 5' plant to plant); I have heard of 2 to 3 times that density with attendant increases in total yield (lbs/acre or Kg/Ha). The yield will surely level out and probably drop off at some point as there is only so much sunlight and nutrient available. Some vineyards are grown "bush" style so it's certainly possible, but you will have to stake them till there is enough trunk diameter to keep them erect. Your in-season maintenance and pruning may be a bit more demanding (they may not realize or agree on their optimum size), but the principle of matching the leaf area to the fruit load is well established.

    As long as you can physically access and tend the vines I don't see any serious drawbacks.

    Ralph
     
  5. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Thanks Ralph
    I was thinking of the tomato plant field anology myself.
    Yes, you are right that it will require close attention to maintenance (pruning) during the season. Also, the staking will be required until the trunk is strong enough.
    I think it will be a bit (or more) better than the single hole planting where two, three or sometimes four stone-fruit plants are planted bunched together in a small area.
     
  6. iammotown

    iammotown Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mesa, AZ Zone 9-10
    i dont understand why they must be so close? are you trying to conserve space? (i bordered mine along the fence on a trellis to keep them out of the way and cover the block wall.) or are you trying to make it look like a tree, physically? i wouldn't think nutrition should be a problem but many people (me included) are expirementing with mycorrhizal fungi to help absorb nutrients and water as well as fight drought and root harming pests.
    i don't know if this will help but i hope. grapevines need good ventilation or they can be at risk for mildew/bacteria and pests like knats. air and sun will keep the leaves and fruit dry. also if the trunks of the vines are to close, they may compete for nutrients because the roots will grow and spread regardless. (mine are 6 ft apart but i've read you can go as close as 4 ft apart) i dont know if yours will be closer than that. you can try to control where the roots grow with water though- a slow drip will water deeper into the soil and the roots should grow down and out, and if you make and flood a shallow/ wide basin, you can hold more water in the topsoil, and the roots shouldn't go as deep.
     
  7. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Why?
    I will have one each of a number of varieties, more than the space alloted (by the better-half) can accommodate the normal spacing.
    Your suggestion of drip watering is one way but I will think of using a 1" or 1.5" pipe used as support for the trunks as well as for deep watering to try directing roots downward (unless the roots have other ideas).
    It is just backyard hobby garden. I hope grapes will behave better in fruiting than the stone-fruit plants like cherries, plums, apricots etc. I have experience with one WalMart bare-root type which fruited nicely last year but all 50+ bunches were cleaned by raccune just one night before the planned harvest.
     
  8. Ralph Walton

    Ralph Walton Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denman Island,BC
    It is a little known fact, but raccoons and starlings are equipped with an advanced type of radar/esp that will penetrate a sleeping fruit growers brain. They know absolutely when you have made the decision to harvest and will set out in the wee hours of that same morning to reduce that lush crop to bare sticks and pits.

    I am sure there are scientists working on this issue but so far no success.

    Ralph
     
  9. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Ralph
    Raccoons watch from a distance the fruit growers watching their fruit plants and when they see the fruit grower shake his head in positive mood like one shakes when saying 'yup it is time', so the raccoon(s) knows it is tonight or never (i.e. nexy year probably).
    Well squirrels too eat my strawberries, cucumber in the summer time and I thought they can't do any damage in the winter. Well, yesterday I was watching our backyard through the window and saw a couple of squirrels ripping apart burlap that I had wrapped around the sweet cherries to protect the cherry plants from the jack rabbits which had chewed on the barks of fruit trees last winter after the close to record snow fall when their food supplies were covered deep under the snow. The squirrels were taking the burlap pieces to furnish their abode up in the trees.
    That is why the fruits of labout tasts so sweet even if it is not sweet because it survives so many odds.
     
  10. iammotown

    iammotown Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mesa, AZ Zone 9-10
    i tried that once with pvc pipe and a tomato plant. the root grew towards the pipe and what i think happened was when there was no water in the pvc pipe, it let air get below the soil level and thats where the roots where hanging out. i tried again a 2nd time with a sponge inside the pipe to let water through but not air. it worked a little better but then summer came and it withered away. the vines should root deeper so you might be ok but i wanted to share that with you that the roots might grow towards that pole.
    i think there is a pruning method actually called "head pruning" for grapevines and that gives it more of a bush/ tree shape. and you could make them as tall as you like.
    good luck!!!
     
  11. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    iammotown
    Actually the "head pruning", which I mentioned in my starting post, gave me the idea (though not original at all).

    Also, the pipe idea came from one of the posts in this thread (localized drip watering getting deeper) for making the roots tendency to go more deep than sideways by moisture availability at depth. I was planning the pipe end to be deep. It is all for fun and hobby and hope it will works.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2009
  12. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Denver,Colorado USA
    If you are going to grow single vines of each variety, I believe head trained, spur pruned vines will give you the most fruit per vine. A head trained, spur pruned vine is nothing more than the vine's vertical trunk, normally tied to a post, with spurs radiating out from rach side of the top one half, down to the one third of the vine's main trunk, making the vine look like a latter. Spur pruning is the simplest system for a beginner to learn. Once the positions of the side trunk spurs have been established, future pruning involves no more than removal of unwanted canes, and the cutting back of the remaining shoots at the spur positions. The old spurs serve as a guide, you just repeat what has been done the year before. The grape clusters are all produced near the trunk at each spur. Using this method, each vine would have 4 or 5 fruiting spurs with 1 to 3 buds per spur. One word of advise, growing head trained grape vines, only vines with low to moderate vigor, should be used. - Millet
     
  13. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Millet wrote:
    "with spurs radiating out from rach side of the top one half, down to the one third of the vine's main trunk, making the vine look like a latter". unquote.
    Do I understand correctly that it means the side trunk spurs may be positioned only on the top 1/2 to 1/3; or is it 1/2 to 2/3?
    Does it mean it will look like a ladder (latter?) ?

    There will be another great advantage of this form with head pruning of covering for protection if required with net etc if it can stop squrrels or raccoons (& the two legged impatients).
     
  14. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Denver,Colorado USA
    Sorry for the typo of the word "ladder".

    Yes, from the top 1/2 to 1/3

    Take care - Millet
     
  15. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Thank Millet
    That will be a beautiful ladder to look at.
     
  16. Ottawa-Zone5

    Ottawa-Zone5 Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
  17. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Denver,Colorado USA
    Those would make a very decorative and welcome entrance way planted on both sides of a longer driveway. Especially if one had some acreage. - Millet
     

Share This Page