Bonemeal /citrus yes or no

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by monkey, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. monkey

    monkey Member

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    Bonemeal/lemons yes or no, Thanks Millet ,Junglekeeper and others for the tip on using 30.10.10 fertilizer on citrus. I have been growing potted Ponderosa Lemons in a greenhouse for only about three years. They flower and fruit nonstop. Several older books I have, suggest incorporating lots of phosphatic material into the soil. I have been using bonemeal sometimes burn`t bonemeal , Comments anyone ?
     
  2. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    Bonemeal is primarialy Ca and P-- citrus do not need much P, so I would not use it on citrus myself. The 30-10-10 is OK and should provide more P than the tree needs relative to the N and K.
     
  3. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Skeeter, has given you some good information. Citrus does not utilize very much phosphorus (P). In fact citrus only requires one fifth the amount of P as it does nitrogen. I agree with Skeet, forget the bonemeal. - Millet
     
  4. monkey

    monkey Member

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    Thanks Skeeterbug and Millet . I respect both of your opinions . Your advice confirms my suspicions about the addition of bonemeal to citrus soil. I will use it no longer
     
  5. drichard12

    drichard12 Active Member 10 Years

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    30-10-10 is fine. You also need Sulfur,Boron,Copper,Iron,
    Manganese,Molybdenum an Zinc.. Dale
     
  6. monkey

    monkey Member

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    thanks drichard 12 , The 30.10.10 I have been using is Plant-Prod brand, Evergreen,Tree+Shrub fertilizer with micronutrients [water soluble ] .This is what I have on hand for feeding my Monkey Puzzle trees etc. The Guaranteed Minimum Analysis listed on the container is 30% nitrogen, 10% phosphoric acid , 10% soluble potash ,.02 % boron , .05 % chelated copper , .10 % chelated iron ,.05 % chelated manganese , .0005 % molybdenum , .05 % chelated zinc and 1 % EDTA . However no sulfur [sulphur ] is listed on the label . hmmm... ?
     
  7. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    Since Magnesium is also not listed, you can supply--or need to supply both by the addition of Epsom Salt (MgSO4). You can dissolve a tbs/gal of warm water and apply several times a yr.
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Some pretty strong formulations being listed here. Applications of high NPK products to potted plants based on assumption that they are planted in sandy or soilless potting media that leach badly and therefore require frequent heavy fertilization to make up for this. As with all fertilization being undertaken without sampling and testing of the material the roots are growing in it is again being assumed the product selected supplies the right nutrients in the right amounts. Without at least some prior knowledge of the mineral content of the rooting environment (as well as the irrigation water being used) you are actually in fact just about shooting blind.

    Plants in the ground except where placed in very poor sandy soils are unlikely to require regular high doses of strong fertilizers. And it is quite possible to overdose any plant and poison it or the soil it is growing in. A soil overloaded with phosphorus - a likely scenario due to all the high phosphate products that are used freely by home gardeners - needs to be removed and replaced before the situation can be corrected as phosphorus leaches extremely slowly. Likewise trace elements are so-called because they are normally present in trace amounts, repeated use of products containing trace elements could it seems fairly soon produce a toxic excess of one or more of these.

    Links to additional discussion - including the use of bonemeal - that may be of interest can be found in this list.

    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/index.html
     
  9. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    Ron,
    My assumption here is that we were talking about a potted citrus tree in the typical soil-less media. In general these media do not supply the trace minerals needed. The NPK level in the fertilizer does not mean that the concentration applied to the tree would be more than needed--that would depend on the amount added--I have seen no mention of that.

    I did not read all of the link you provided, but I did a read part about Epsom Salt. I was an environmental chemist for 25 years, I cannot remember ever hearing of Mg as a pollutant and it is the center of every chlorophyll molecule--so clearly plants need it. Certainly, excess fertilizers are harmful to the environment--especially if they get into our waters--P more so in freshwater environments and N in marine environments.
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    It's a balancing act that really needs to be carefully orchestrated for best results. Excesses of one nutrient can cause deficiencies of another. This includes nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus. Too much nitrogen may cause a potassium deficit. Too much potassium may affect calcium or magnesium supply. And so on. Fertilizers for container culture have long been tinkered with and refined but it is always the case that variables including which potting medium is used and what the irrigation water is like affect how each product works in each situation. Growers often have to experiment and learn what combinations work best for them, just like chefs.

    Only since with growing plants some of the ingredients being used in one place may be different from those in another it's not quite the same as trading recipes, where the milk, sugar and eggs here are pretty much the same as there.
     
  11. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    I agree with the fact that a balanced "diet" of both macro and minor elements is needed--that is why I recommended against extra P and pointed out missing trace elements (Mg & S) in the formulation he was using. Trace minerals in water rarely supply enough of any minerals other than Ca and possibly iron, but they should be considered if you are in an area with high mineral content in the water.
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    In years past some people incorporated, hand
    mixed, in Bonemeal into their potting soil medium
    just prior to transplant. It was not so much the
    application of Bonemeal that caused some later
    trouble, it was the amount of Bonemeal used per
    soil substrate that could serve to cause some
    bound nutrient issues to develop later on.

    Personally just a couple of ounces of Bonemeal
    per five gallon container soil is adequate in areas
    that are prone to chlorosis issues in their container
    plants both grown indoors and outdoors.

    I am surprised at such comments from people
    thinking that a few ounces or even up to a pound
    of applied fertilizer per plant may seem extreme.
    For container plants a pound of material applied
    per growing season may be extreme for some
    plants growing in some locations but compared
    to commercial plantings in ground a pound of
    applied material per tree is just a drop in the
    bucket. Not even worthy of mentioning as a
    pound of applied fertilizer is such a paltry
    amount of little consequence for production
    trees. Another thing to consider is that when
    organic growers cease all usage of commercial
    granulated fertilizers they still are looking at
    other means to incorporate nutrients into their
    soils such as cover crops, green manure crops,
    even harvested and dried kelp, composted
    materials and even from meals, although some
    meals such as ground fish based meals can be
    injurious to container and in ground Citrus when
    applied at rates exceeding recommended
    instructions. So can Bloodmeal but used as
    a top dress a few ounces (one to two ounces
    per five gallon container tree) of Bonemeal
    as well as Cottonseed meal do not seem to
    cause a whole lot of locking up or bounding
    of nutrients that are impervious to applied
    water dissolution.

    Out here Calcium is more likely to be found
    bound up due to overuse of Phosphorous than
    Phosphorous will be bound up due to too much
    applied Calcium. I've used Calcium to help
    with Iron caused chlorosis, even used Calcium
    to help for Magnesium speckling of the leaves.
    Let me now enter into this fray a dilemma that
    Florida officials from IFAS had with some of
    their calcareous soils in which at first it seemed
    painfully absurd to them with some knowledge
    of soil chemistry to use Gypsum and lots of
    applied water to help them with their bound
    Calcium issues in their soils. To apply added
    Calcium to an already known Calcium problem
    seemed ridiculous, runs counter to what they
    leaned in school and from their subsequent
    studies but it is not so much Calcium that is
    doing all of the work, it is the Sulfur and the
    Oxygen content of the Sulfate along with lots
    of applied water is what will help dissolve
    and leach the bound and much of the newly
    applied Calcium right out of the root zone.
    Calcium has the ability to change once in
    the ground and become another state or
    even another element and the result that
    cannot be duplicated too well in a lab is
    that Calcium can later become Iron and
    even Magnesium for us under the right
    conditions.

    People that taut that this element or that
    nutrient is harmful to groundwater runoff
    and to the environment are not always
    playing the game with a full deck and are
    generally mouthpieces for someone else
    and have their own agendas that wantonly
    run counter to mainstream thinking. We
    have to have oodles of Magnesium content
    in the groundwater to cause trouble for us.
    It can also be argued that application of
    Magnesium through Epsom salts can be
    a real hedge against our bet for soils that
    have been contaminated with Lead or from
    Lead residues from other entities such as
    paint. The boobirds only talk in terms
    of what is or can be bad for us but seldom
    or never divulge what we can do instead
    that will succeed in being better for us.
    People that do strictly lab research may
    need to take a soils class over again
    sometime as obviously they seemingly
    are not well versed in what goes on in the
    soil and what microbial action alone can
    do that changes the aspects of what will
    or may be seen in basic chemical or ionic
    substitution reactions as seen in a lab.

    Bonemeal does have practical application
    as a top dress to Citrus. It is a matter of
    how much we want to use, how we plan to
    water it in, what else is or will be used with
    it, such as other nutrients, the mineral
    content of the water and the mineral and
    nutrient content and pH of the soil substrate
    we will have as our container potting soil.

    Ron, this forum does not deal with in
    ground plants too well. Not enough
    people have done it and have limited
    time involved in actually putting these
    trees in ground. For our area here a
    30-10-10 measured in pounds per tree
    as one yearly application or accrued
    over time is a little extreme. Our trees
    in the ground here do not come close
    to using a 5-1-3 ratio but trees grown
    in other Citrus areas can and some
    do, depending on the soil, the amount
    of those residual nutrients already in
    the soil, how we irrigate and the amount
    of applied water and for some areas
    the length of growing season and the
    amount of bright sun during a growing
    season, not just the amount of ambient
    light either and in some areas one of the
    more important factors - the median soil
    temperature during a growing season.

    People in this forum with so little to no
    commercial background in Citrus trees
    are not advising in terms of applying
    500 pounds of actual Nitrogen and
    100 pounds of actual Phosphorous
    and 300 pounds of actual Potassium
    per acre as seen in other crops. They
    are talking in terms of ounces per tree
    and that is not anything to get nervous
    about. When we apply perhaps a ton
    of material to get our 500 pounds of
    Nitrogen per acre, then we can talk
    about potential and over time probable
    groundwater contamination and the
    principal effects to others if we can
    ever agree that the symptoms that
    others may be having are indeed
    due to someones over fertilization
    practices. Just because the likelihood
    of continued over fertilization as being
    the principal cause of a sickness may
    be an issue to some people, in reality
    it may not be the real culprit. I look at
    proposed cancer clusters, even in my
    area, as not being proved as of yet,
    surmised by several specialists - yes,
    to have come about solely or indirectly
    from contaminated groundwater as my
    example.

    Jim
     
  13. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I agree with Snickles 100 Percent. Worrying about environment damage, or ground water contamination caused by the micro amounts of NPK that a container citrus grower applies to his/her tree is inanely irrational. 30-10-10 is not the most desired fertilizer formula or the most desired ratio to use with a containerized citrus tree. The best ratio for container trees is a 5-1-3 ratio. But again when we are talking about the addition of mere grams of fertilizer per application, it is a waste of energy for so much worry. Skeet is also brings up the point that the amount of fertilizer added was not mentioned. As far as calcium many water supplies in the western US probably supply enough PPM CA for most plants. Growing a container citrus is meant to be fun, not meant to be a scientific choir backed up by on going lab analysis. I currently grow near 100 citrus trees, and have for years. I do get a lab water analysis ever couple years, as I am using well water, but that is more for the farm than the greenhouse. - Millet
     
  14. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Further to the feeding of "pretty strong formulations", I would add that citrus are heavy feeders, requiring a higher than normal amount of nutrition. Last year when I was visiting at the USDA- University of California-Riverside's National Citrus Clonal Protection Program, and the USDA ARS's Variety Collection, I inquired about their containerized citrus fertilization program. The CCPP fertilizes all of their containerized citrus trees at the high rate of 300 PPM Nitrogen withe EVERY watering. I asked about how ofter the irrigate using only clear water, and was told very rarely. I think there is not much to worry about concerning semi strong formulations. Anyway, when talking about fertilizer application, its quantitative and qualitative, not just qualitative. - Millet
     
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Environmental aspects of home gardening practices become relevant when lots of people may be doing the same thing. Sure, a few pots of something won't generate much but a few million might. Here a local water utility has been on home users for some years now about what they put on their lawns etc.
     
  16. monkey

    monkey Member

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    I`ve been following the discussion closely since my original post. I also read many of the articles offered through the link you provided in post #8 ,Ron. Lots of fascinating information all around . As to my personal case and original query in Post # 1. To keep it simple I didn`t mention that I do add a small dose of Epsom Salt similar to what you suggested in post # 7 Skeeter. Thanks. I also top dress with a bit of cured manure from the animal shed here on the farm . In keeping with this I always under fertilize with the 30.10.10 { in regard to strength/quantity] . My grow media is "soil-less ", originally "sunshine mix " brand ,peat perlite formula . More recently I`ve adopted the recommended Firbark/sand-grit/manure recipe. Accordingly this mix would require less fertilizer strength again . In regards to groundwater pollution and speaking only of my own contribution to it , it must be minuscule ,compared to the helicopter spraying on the 160acre cranberry farm one kilometer to the north, the fertilizer use on the vineyards abutting this farm to the east and west ,the major blueberry fields {heavy users] in the neighbourhood ,or the large # of old dilapitated pieces of heavy equipment ,sitting idle ,leaking fluids on the farm next door. As it happens .I do have a recent Metal Analysis of our well water here, if anyone has insights into how to interpret it in the context of this discussion. I will shortform it here. The results are expressed in milligrams per liter, mg/l. Aluminum, Antimony and Arsenic are below the detection limits of .03 to .05 , Barium is .017 , Beryllium below limits, Boron is .14, Cadmium below limits, Calcium 14.4 , Chromium ,Copper and Cobalt below limits , Iron .09, Lead below limits , Magnesium 6.12 , Manganese .13 , Molybdenum and Nickel below limits , Phosphorus 1.1 , Potassium 6.1 ,Silicon .38 ,Sodium 60.0 , Strontium .058, Tin ,Titanium ,Vanadium below limits and finally Zinc .035 The ph is 8.26 ph units . Hardness 61 , Total alkalinity CaCO3 219 mg/l , Bicarbonate Alkalinity HCO3 267 mg/l , Maybe thats too much information but perhaps something is noteworthy to your more practiced eyes and knowledge .
     
  17. skeeterbug

    skeeterbug Active Member

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    The good news is that all of the bad metals are below detection--Arsenic, Beryllium, Cadmium, Chromium, Lead. The one I am not certain about with regard to citrus is the Boron--it is one element that citrus need, but can also be toxic to citrus--I just don't know the levels that are needed vs toxic--however, my guess is that level is not a toxic level.

    Milligrams/liter is the same as ppm if you want to know.

    I agree that the few tablespoons of fertilizer used on a container citrus tree is not going to cause any environmental damage--you are right about the lawn fertilizers--that is the kind of level and use that is causing some of the problems--especially here now that so many homeowners have turned that over to "Lawn Green" type companies.
     

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