Philodendron saxicolum

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by LariAnn, Jul 13, 2009.

  1. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    A bit over a year ago, I purchased some seeds that were supposed to be from P. adamantinum and P. saxicolum. Out of all the seeds (I think 50 of each), only one seed germinated. The germinated one was in the P. saxicolum batch. Now that the plant has leaves about 5 inches from base of petiole to leaf tip, I can say with certainty that it is like no meco I have grown from seed before. The small leaves are already quite pinnately divided, but with a unique pattern. It looks like a juvenile version of the P. saxicolum pictures I've seen.

    If so, the money I spent on all those nonviable seeds has finally paid off. Now I need to nurse this little plant up to blooming size. Anyone else out there have a P. saxicolum?

    LariAnn
     
  2. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    You probably know this, but a few years back Brian Williams and some others bought a large natch of seeds that supposedly contained P. adamantinum and the like...they grew them up and sold some (including one that I bought which was labeled P. adamantinum).

    So far, NONE of the many seeds has grown into any of the hard to get species. Mine has very unusual leaves, curled up as if in prayer, but it is most certainly not P. adamantinum...the current thinking is that those are batches of hybrids or part of the P. bipinnatifidum complex.

    I attached a pic of that unknown Philodendron below. It has hard leathery leaves unlike anything I've seen. brian has tons of these unknown mecos.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    My seeds came from rarepalmseeds.com in Germany; A quick check just now indicates that they do not list the two species as available at this time. I know some folks (Brian?) got theirs from a fellow named Seidel and none of them got what they thought they were paying for. I'd have to see what their plants looked like when they were the same size mine is now. Of course I won't be sure until the plant reaches a much larger size than it is at this time. The P. bipinnatifidum types have a certain look in the seedling stage, a look I am very familiar with because of the hundreds of meco seeds I have germinated (from my own plants). I've also seen many pots of those seedlings planted out in nursery production beds. Those seedlings don't begin to show any significant pinnation until they are much larger than my seedling.

    Meanwhile, I will continue hoping that I've got something new and interesting, at least, and maybe even a P. saxicolum!

    LariAnn
     
  4. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Well, if it proves to be P. saxicolum, be sure to tell Julius...he once had one but it passed away, and as far as we can tell there were only 2 of those specimens in the entire continental USA. And even Leland in Hawaii doesn't have one.

    It would be a grand coup if your juvenile grows up to be one! Bet ya you could sell it for $1000+ or more....
     
  5. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    Ok folks, here are a couple of pictures of my seedling that is supposed to be P. saxicolum. Notice in the overall shot that a very young juvenile leaf is visible and that leaf is entire. The very next leaf is fully pinnate even though the new leaves are still being produced in a "juvenile" fashion. By that I mean that the new leaf arises from a sheath of the previous leaf, rather than from within a separate cataphyll.

    Any thoughts?

    LariAnn
     

    Attached Files:

  6. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Gotta admit, you may have something there...i attached a pic of a larger P. saxocolum from the wild...if your thing is P. saxocolum, that would be AWESOME...especially if you can sell some cuttings to moi ;-)
     

    Attached Files:

  7. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    My goal with this plant is to get it large enough to bloom, then try to self it and set a bunch of seed on it. At that point, I will have a quantity of plants to release. Of course, I have a few hybridizations in mind as well . . .

    LariAnn
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2009
  8. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    The plant has continued to grow, throwing a new leaf since my last post. One remarkable characteristic is that the plant is growing as if it were a completely natural dwarf pinnate meco. Even my compact or dwarf-sized bipinnatifidum hybrids did not grow in this manner when they were as young as this plant is now. In fact, I did not know if I had developed the more dwarf-growing meco hybrids I was working towards until the plants got quite large. My alleged P. saxicolum is showing clearly the dwarf growing habit and fully pinnate leaves even when small enough to be comfortable growing in a 4 inch pot (and not stunted, either).

    LariAnn
    Aroidia Research
     
  9. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Hmmm...thanks LariAnn....look forward to some pics once it gets a bit more mature and we can see what it is...

    btw, i'm impressed with the robust growth of the Philodendron mello-barretoannum...after it acclimated it seems to be throwing out a new gorgeous leaf every week or two....the leaves are hell better looking than the two P. bipinnatifidum that I have, much more fine and wavy...
     
  10. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    Oh, I want to add that I am observing this plant very closely because if it is a true P. saxicolum, my observations will go a long way towards helping others grow this plant successfully. The plant does NOT like a lot of water. When I had it out where it got rain whenever it rained, it started getting Erwinia necrotic spots and even lost a leaf or two. I keep it out of rain now, make sure water does not get on the leaves, and water it sparingly, only in the soil, not on the leaves. Based on what I've seen about the native environment, this makes sense because the plant grows in a drier kind of location than a typical P. bipinnatifidum. The plant also seems to prefer a lot of sun rather than shade.

    In other news, my P. goeldii and my P. "dwarf speciosum" are both beginning to bloom, so I'm going to get a shot at developing a dwarf "African Fantasy" type hybrid with short petioles. I've been waiting years for this chance coincidence of blooming. Wish me luck!

    LariAnn
    Aroidia Research
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  11. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I hate to be a "stick in the mud" but according to both TROPICOS and the International Plant Names Index the proper name of this species is Philodendron saxicola K. Krause.

    I've heard it called "saxicolum" for as long as I've been interested in aroids but today I was promised some seeds directly from South America so I set out to do some research. Just thought those that are serious about aroids would want to know.
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Sometimes the rules of botany get in the way and this seems to be one of those cases.

    If you grow ferns you may have noticed the genus name Microsorum is often also spelled Microsorium in many scientific papers. That was because the botanist (Link) who coined the word Microsorum used it with both spellings in his very first paper! As a result, each is technically correct although Microsorum was at the top of the page and is considered to be the correct genus name. In this case when botanist Kurt Krause originally described the species in 1913 he also made a mistake. But the original published name is in fact Philodendron saxicola.

    Below is Dr. Simon Mayo's answer why both spellings are used by botanical scientists today. In Simon's paper A Revision of Philodendron Subgenus Meconostigma (Araceae) published in 1991 he also used the name Philodendron saxicolum. For those that don't know, Simon is a world renowned aroid botanist with the Royal Botanic Garden Kew in London. Philodendron saxicola is in the subgenus Meconostigma.

    If you check all the major botanical data bases you will find that the Kew uses both spellings. TROPICOS only uses Philodendron saxicola while the Kew's CATE Araceae says the correct name is Philodendron saxicola. I asked Simon yesterday for an explanation and this was his response:

    Steve,

    I think it's a bit of a moot point. I followed the original spelling Philodendron saxicolum, because you generally can't go too far wrong if you follow the original. However, the code of nomenclature says that species epithets ending in "-cola" should be treated as nouns in apposition rather than as adjectives, the latter being the usual form for latin binomials. So, Anthurium scandens means "The climbing Anthurium", scandens = adjective, Anthurium is the noun. However, saxicola is grammatically correctly treated as meaning "that which inhabits rocks", so Philodendron saxicola means "Philodendron - The Rock Inhabiter" (cf. "Conan the Warrior"); in this case, the word "saxicola" is a noun and doesn't have to agree with the noun Philodendron; -cola" has the status of a feminine noun and so ends in "a" whatever the genus name gender (neuter in the case of Philodendron).

    So, it should be Philodendron saxicola. Kurt Krause and I both got it wrong.

    All the best
    Simon
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  13. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    So "Philodendron saxicolum" should mean "the rock-inhabiting Philodendron"? I wonder what is wrong with that. This is one of the reasons I chose Plant Physiology instead of Taxonomy. There is a reason why the word "tax" is a part of the word "taxonomy", don't you think?

    LariAnn
     
  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Good question! Your translation appears correct according to Simon but I still don't know what to call the plant! It appears according to notes I found on Kew and TROPICOS to have been published as Philodendron saxicola K. Krause but many botanists prefer P. saxicolum. My curiousity just always gets into gear when I find these kinds of discrepancies.
     
  15. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    My thought is that if the specific name, generally, is an adjective, then perhaps consistency is called for. After all, many plant family names were changed so they would all end in 'eae' (as in old Leguminosae vs new Fabaceae), so if they can do that to make all family names consistent, why not make all specific names consistently adjectives? It's hard enough to get a good ID and nomenclature without making the entire system subject to even more errors! Perhaps something much more radical is called for - Linnaeus was a genius but might his binomial system of nomenclature have outlived its usefulness in this 21st century of DNA genotyping and computer dominance?

    LariAnn
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  16. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Oh, oh, oh! Since I'm just a student I think I'll leave that one for the experts! I get nasty notes pretty often from people that don't like some name I have on my website because it isn't the one they grew up knowing! I'd hate to get this one stirred up since I'll spend the next year learning new names and changing the pages on my site. Shoot, I still have trouble remembering all the names I have wired to my plants!

    Tell Simon........he is closer to the "board" at Kew than anyone I know!
     
  17. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    OK, here is the latest pic of my plant. Note the pronounced pinnation on the newest leaf, and the presence of the small entire juvenile leaf as well. This plant is very healthy in a 4" pot, quite atypical were this a robust P. bipinnatifidum seedling. Such a seedling would be, literally, walking out of the pot in search of more soil and room. I know because I have one or two like that right now in my collection! By contrast, this plant is very content. I get more excited with each new leaf.

    LariAnn
     

    Attached Files:

  18. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Neat. Do you have any idea where Airlin is? I think he said he would be on vacation but I was asked this morning by the three guys I originally had this "name" discussion with to ask that he add Simon's info to his on website. All three post on his site all the time. Speaking of which.

    http://www.blueboard.com/pahatan/rencana.htm

    There are some great discussion on the Blueboard about Philodendron species in subgenus Meconostigma!

    I think I'll have fresh seeds delivered for this species at the IAS show in September!
     
  19. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    I haven't heard from Airlan as normally I know he's around just because he posts here.

    If you do get fresh seeds, I'd love to try a few. I'm sure mine were not very fresh due to the fact that I got only one seedling out of 50 seeds! I think it important that someone grow this species to blooming in the US AND set seed on them so as to have active propagating germ plasm for it in the continental USA. I feel qualified enough to do this, and would certainly be able to do so if I had more than one blooming sized specimen. Otherwise, assuming mine is a true specimen of P. saxicola/saxicolum, I'll have to try selfing, which is not as sure a thing as interbreeding two different seedlings of the same species.

    LariAnn
     
  20. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Tap me on the shoulder at the show and I'll gladly do my best to share. If I get them they will be so fresh they just came off the plane!
     
  21. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    Will do! Now, let September be an unusually quiet one on the tropical weather front . . .
     
  22. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I lived through Andrew! Never again!!!!
     
  23. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    New update: my plant is throwing another, very pinnate leaf and I have up-potted it to a 6" size. On unpotting, I observed that the soil ball was not dense with roots. This is, again, atypical; were this a P. bipinnatifidum or hybrid, such would have already filled the soil ball with thick roots. This plant is growing in a decidedly different manner than those. I am diligent about keeping this plant out of rain and too much moisture in the soil. Now that it has a bit more root room, I will be watching to see how it responds. As soon as the newest leaf unfurls fully, I will post a pic for the record.

    If I am correct in the ID of this plant, it should perform even better when the humidity here drops (this Fall/Winter). The leaves should also thicken and turn somewhat bluish. I'm waiting with bated breath . . .

    LariAnn
    Aroidia Research
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  24. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    As will I!!! If I get the seeds from South America I would have tried to grow them in my very damp atrium and that would not likely have been a good idea. Now I'm going to have to come up with an alternate plan.

    The good thing is other than the cold winters our normal summer and fall weather is realatively dry so it should be fine outside where I put a bunch of other plants when they can safely come out of the greenhouse.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  25. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I'm slowly gathering info for a webpage on this species. My friend Leland Miyano sent this photo this morning of a young leaf of Philodendron saxicola. I'm hoping he'll send more photos of his adult plant soon since I hope to grow this species if I'm lucky enough to get seeds. Leland once worked with Roberto Burle-Marx who had the largest collection of Brazilian aroid species in the world. After Burle-Marx' death the collection was taken overy by the Brazilian government. This is Leland's note that came with this photo: "I have this species and it is very slow growing. I made a mistake by cutting my large plant and it is still trying to recover. By large, my plant had a single head and a stem 15 feet long. As usual, my plant was a gift of Roberto Burle-Marx many years ago."

    Leland says he is growing this plant under 50% shade cloth.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page