composting question

Discussion in 'Soils, Fertilizers and Composting' started by amaneser, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    Ok I am new to this site and the whole compost thing. I have read and read lots of sites about composting. I have some cow and goat manure, tree clippings that i cut small, animal bedding, fruit/veggie scraps, coffee grounds, and ashes. Is that good enough to start a pile? What do i need to do? I have it all seperated into piles in my yard. Im not sure how much of what i need to put into a pile to start composting. Can i add stuff at any time or do i need to start a new pile every time.
     
  2. joclyn

    joclyn Rising Contributor

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    mix it all together and turn it over every week/10 days. yes, you can add in more stuff as you go along.

    what is the animal bedding material??? and what type of animal??

    usual items are: manure (horse, goat, cow), grass clippings or hay, tree leaves, small twigs from trees (bigger pieces can be chopped small and/or mulched), coffee grounds/used tea leaves, dead plants (not weeds!) and any portion of bud stalks (from iris, gladiola, etc) after they've died off, vegetable and fruit trimmings (skins, stalks, cores/rinds cut small, etc).

    you will need to turn the pile and mix things around frequently. in your area with the heat, i'd say it should be done weekly. you'll also need to add moisture more frequently than other areas due to the hot temps where you are - that would be on an as-needed basis; you want to keep the pile moist, not completely soggy.

    should be about a month or so for it to be ready to use and then you just pull out what you need and continue adding stuff into the main pile so you'll have more for later use.
     
  3. K Baron

    K Baron Well-Known Member

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    Do not forget to add a few shovel full of soil, and mix into the medium. If the temp. are to hot and dry, add moisture..
    afterall you are in Arizona... unless you are up high in the snowy mountains?
     
  4. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    no im in the south part of az. The bedding is from cows and goats. so is the manure. the clippings are from some citrus trees. A friend of mine trims trees and i told him he could dump it here at my house. Are palm tree trimmings ok? As for the soil to add.....we only have sand. Do i need to buy potting soil to add into it, or top soil? I get all the grass clippings i need from the golf course and we have animals so the manure and bedding is not a problem. We have access to lots of fruit and veggie scraps too. But as far as the other things you can add to a pile i wont be able to get much of. Things like newspaper, egg shells, sawdust, fallen leaves.........not much around here for me to get. Will my pile still be ok w/o these things?
     
  5. K Baron

    K Baron Well-Known Member

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    Here's my input... be sure to have constructed a covered, breathable/vented composter... to allow proper aeration, and containment and to prevent drying out....... palm tree trimmings are only useful for your purpose if shredded, decomposition will be undetermined, or years... of course you probably know, not to add meat or animal fats, and do add coffee/espresso grounds which are free at coffee houses(at least in Canada) for such a purpose...
     
  6. Davidgriffiths

    Davidgriffiths Active Member

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    Hi, Amaneser.

    Get a composter, and then alternate layers of browns and greens. Browns are dried leaves, dried grass clippings, wood chips, newspaper, etc.

    Greens are wet grass clippings, wet leaves, kitchen scraps, etc.

    It can all go into one big pile, but try to layer - browns, greens, manure, soil. No, sand won't work, and neither will potting soil - the potting soil has been sterilized, and the sand is not organic. You want soil that is full of life, as it will provide the microbes that will do the composting. The manure will go a long way in providing this, but to be safe, grab some soil (borrow some from a neighbor, or grab some from a park or municipal site). A bucket full should do.

    The tree trimmings are not going to compost quickly unless you have them chipped - they can take years to break down, and will be a pain.

    The manure will be very advantageous for your compost, as it contains the bacteria and other microbes that an aerobic compost uses (I'll explain what an aerobic compost is farther down). Not sure about the bedding - if it's dry straw, then it's a brown, and if the animals peed all over it, then it's a big bonus - very good for the compost :)

    You'll need to stir your compost, keep it wet, and when you add green material, also add brown material.



    ---------------------

    There are two types of composting (well, technically 3, but you don't want the third type - it stinks) - aerobic, and vermicular. Aerobic uses air-loving bacteria and other microbes (think of aerobic exercise - you breath hard). Vermicular compost uses worms. The compost I described above is an aerobic compost.

    My composts filled with worms - not by choice - they just took a liking to my composters. I had planned on an aerobic compost pile.

    Here's a good page on aerobic composting (ignore the anaerobic compost section).


    Using worms (vermicular compost) has the following advantages - the compost is of very high quality, it's fairly low maintenance, and you can add primarily green material (without worrying about the amount of brown material).

    The disadvantages are that it's slow, and doesn't heat up enough to kill the seeds from weeds - we get tomato plants all over our yard from the tomato seeds that end up in the compost.

    Aerobic compost is faster, and will sterilize any seeds that make their way in.

    The disadvantage is that they are more work. You need to monitor the amount of green and brown material going in, and keep them wet. The compost is also considered to be not-as-good-as what the worms produce.

    Hope that helps.
     
  7. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    Thanks for the added info. It always helps to get more info
     
  8. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    a lady gave me a huge stack of newpapers so i have been shredding them and adding to my pile. I read somewhere that manure from a feed lot is not good because its high in........something. I dont remember what is was. Is that true? We have a feed lot here and i was thinking about getting some manure from them. I pulle out all my tree trimmings because they were in big pieces. I left some of the ones i was able to cut small. I am looking into getting a chipper so that will help. Thanks
     
  9. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Yes, it's true. I just posted on my blog about issues with manure. Cattle feed contains heavy metals, antibiotics, and hormones; they get herbicides and other pesticides through their feed. The nasty feed additives are often at their highest in feedlot feed for two reasons: the animals are being fattened for slaughter (many of the additives increase appetite), and they're in very crowded, unsanitary conditions, so medicinal doses get upped.

    I would NOT use feedlot manure. If you decide to do so, compost it using a hot method, then let it cure. This process, which should take a year, will chemically transform some of the pharmaceuticals and pesticides into less harmful compounds, and will fix some of the metals.
    --Kate
     
  10. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    Thanks. Ive been waiting a long time for someone to answer about the manure. Luckily i didnt get any so im safe .
     
  11. greengarden bev

    greengarden bev Active Member

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    What kind of bedding are you putting in? Straw or shavings? My experience with straw has been negative. Our chickens used straw for bedding in the winter coop, and the straw just does not work in the compost pile. Normally my compost goes through a couple of cycles of heating and cooling and finishes nicely in about two months. When I made a batch with the straw bedding, it just would not heat up.

    I tried a batch with Alpaca poop from the place up the road, thinking that the Carbon-Nitrogen ratio would be more, well, compost-prone. No luck. Paca-poop, sunflower press dregs, and kitchen scraps mixed with straw STILL did not heat up. So I figure it must be the straw.

    After the next coop cleanout I'm replacing the bedding with wood shavings from the local Amish sawmill. Chicken manure and shavings, plus the other usual feedstock, should work.

    One thing to try, if you have a shredder and you don't mind the extra work and noise, is to chop the straw before you put it in the pile.
     
  12. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Glad that was helpful, amaneser. Something else from one of your early posts makes me nervous. You mention getting grass clippings from a golf course. Unless it's a really unusual golf course, those clippings are full of pesticides and synthetic fertilizers, neither of which is a good in a compost pile. Compost has an amazing abilitiy to break down complex chemicals, from the cellulose in wood to pesticides and pharmaceuticals, but there's a limit to what it can handle, and there are some chemicals it can't degrade. (Clopyralid is one; you can read about it here.)

    You were wondering if you have enough material for a pile. Usually a cubic yard of stuff (three feet wide, three long, and three high) is considered minimal to get a pile hot, and if you're composting manure, you should definitely go for a hot pile. Fortunately, the manure itself heats a pile pretty efficiently, so that shouldn't be hard.

    I just finished an absurdly huge article on composting; that's what I cited earlier, not because it's the best source , but because it's the quickest for me to find! Just about everything I know about composting is in that article; help yourself. (If there's a gap, please stop by my blog and let me know. Thanks!)
    --Kate
     
  13. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    I never did get any grass clippings. The golf course decided they would rather throw it into a pile somewhere else. The straw was mostly unused. It was some that just got old so they gave it to me. Its not shavings. I really wanted to get a chipper but have had no luck unless i wanna buy one new. I might. I had some people that do lawn care bring me some tree trimmings that were green and soft. Mostly from citrus. He brought some palm tree trimmings and i asked him not to anymore because they take so long to compost. I know a chipper would help out so much. I kinda gave up on the pile. Its still sitting out there though. My uncle brought over alot of cedar trimmings but then i read they were to acidic and not to use them. I had alot of kitchen scraps because we eat alot of fresh fruit. The coffee grounds i stopped putting them in the pile because i read they are good for my tomato plants so i out them there every 2 weeks. I had lots of cow manure from our pet and not the feed lot, goat manure and paper. Lots and lots of shredded paper. The pile got to big for me to be able to turn with a shovel. I was trying to think of a better way to turn it. Maybe getting some containers and having several smaller piles so i can work with it better.
     
  14. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    I was told that being here in Az a pile should compost faster. Well then some guy said that we have to compost here in the winter. I dont know if there is any merit to that but most of the bottom of the pile was looking really good. But the top has done nothing so i know i need to find a better way to turn it without killing myself in the process.
     
  15. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Is your pile covered? If not, the top is probably too dry. Amaneser, I really recommend that you look at a couple of basic sites about composting. I'd recommend Washington State U Extension, Greater Victoria, and University of Florida.

    For a really good one-page download, I'd go for either the one at Greater Victoria or at MSU (my local university--Montana State University).

    AFTER looking over one of those, I'd check out Tyler Storey's blog, The Desert Garden. I doubt he covers basic composting, but he does have several posts on composting in Arizona. If you type "compost" into his search box, you'll be able to look over all of them at once.

    Good luck with it.
    --Kate
     
  16. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Just noticed that you'd said something about trying to turn your pile with a shovel. I used to do that too, and it's a quick route to hell. I finally went out and got myself a gardening fork, and that changed my life.

    How big is this pile? And do you have any sort of bin? If you have space and the pile is out in the open, one of the simplest ways to turn a big pile is by simply forking the top onto the ground, adding some from the bottom, some more from the top, and so on. If it hasn't heated up, sprinkle some high-nitrogen slow-release fertilizer on the pile every 6 inches or so (I use blood meal), and water that in, assuming the pile needs water. The nitrogen only makes sense, of course, if you're otherwise on the low end for nitrogen. it sounds as though a lot of your greens are woody, coming from shrubbs and trees, so nitrogen would be a good idea.

    Are there a lot of branches from shrubs and trees? I'm getting really interested in this pile! And I'm curious, too, which of those sources feels useful to you.

    --Kate
     
  17. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    I was turning it with a shovel and ended up pulling some muscles on my rib cage. After that i didnt mess with the pile til i was healed. I now have a pitchfork that seems to help turn it. I take whats on top and start a new pile. Then what is on the bottom ends up on top. Most of the trimmings he brought me are real woody. I would let them dry in a seperate pile and then strip the leaves off and add them to the compost pile. All i had was some pruners so i would try to cut the branches up as small as i could. When the pieces were too thick to cut i left them in a pile of their own. The pile is probably 4x4. Its alot smaller now but there are some things that just dont seem to be composting. The paper is still pretty much the same and so is the straw. I add water to it whenver i think about it. I know i should do it more but sometimes i get real busy and forget. Should i add the cedar needles or leave them out. Should I add the coffee grounds or keep putting them by my tomato plants. My tomatoes look great since ive been adding the coffee grounds. Maybe i am adding to much paper. Im sure the pile is not even greens and browns. I was just putting in what i knew i could and whatever i had that was recommended to compost.
     
  18. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    And thanks for sending me those links. The Desert Garden was really useful. I think i read everything posted there.
     
  19. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Ouch with the hip; hope it's healing. Glad you like the Desert Gardener; I was pretty impressed. He takes questions, too.

    I don't know if there's some sort of limit to how many coffee grounds a tomato will absorb happily; you might bry to google that, or start a new thread here. (Or ask the Desert Gardener.) They're certainly great in the compost.

    Sounds like you're doing the right thing with the woody stuff--striping off leaves, cutting up twigs and so on. The twigs themselves and other high carbon or large stuff simply take longer. When the compost is basically done, you can sift or sieve it and toss the uncomposted stuff back on the new pile. Each bit takes with it a bit of finished compost and the related micro-organisms, so these help inoculate a new pile. In other words, I wouldn't worry if some things aren't composting as fast as the others--as long as the pile as a whole is decaying!

    Paper and straw compost slowly; I'd limit the amount you add to a pile. But if you sift the finished compost, you can just toss these back into the next pile. But since you've already got so much high-carbon stuff in this pile, I wouldn't add the cedar needles to it. If you've got space, make a pile of them alone. Ideally, mix a high nitrogen material with them--organic cottonseed meal, fish meal, blood meal--and they'll gradually decay.

    Again, I'd definitely cover the pile, especially as warm weather gets downright hot. All i I've got for a lid is old boards--they work great. Do you have a bin? If nothing else, it provides a support for a lid! Since the lid cuts evaporation, it makes watering less crucial.

    Keep me posted--
    --Kate
     
  20. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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  21. theManicGardener

    theManicGardener Member

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    Thanks, Bob, that is a useful article. The quick version, ameneser, is that you don't want to add a whole lot of uncomposted woody stuff to your soil, because the microbes that break it down will tie up the nitrogen your plants need. That's why it's important to screen compost that's got lots of woody bits--and it's also why you might want to add some high-nitrogen fertilizer to your pile.
    --Kate
     
  22. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    That's the way I understand it too Kate.
    I usually add urea at the rate of about 1 lb to around 100 lbs of started compost. and it seems enough to get the pile up to a good heat a lttle earlier than Ma nature.
    In spring it's tough to find anything else that isn't compromised in one way or another.
    I keep sawdust and straw (cellulose ) out of the compost as it takes too much nitrogen to convert it.
    I do have a separate area for this slower stuff but it's not priorty for the compost.

    Cheers

    Bob
     
  23. amaneser

    amaneser Active Member

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    well thanks you guys so much. I am going to try to sift it and get the good stuff off the bottom. Then just start a new pile with the uncomposted stuff. That site said you can add the coffee grounds as often as you like so i do it about every two weeks. It seems to be doing a good job. My tomatoes have all of a sudden tripled the production amount and look great. A guy i know has some "things" at his house that i asked if i could purchase from him. He said they are actually pipe line when they do underground water lines. I thought they would work great for smaller compost bins for me. I can always make my own top for them. They are prob 2x2 feet, round and very sturdy. But it would have to be for a waterline. It would make it so much easier for me to have several small piles that one huge one i cant do anything with. I do have the cedar in a pile of its own. They are just sitting there for i am not sure what to do with them. I know that watering is an important part in the pile too so i need to get off my duff and step up if i want this to work. The soil here is terrible so i thought it would be great and helpful to have my own compost pile.
     

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