Tree ID help

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by Jon45150, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    We were walking through the Cincinnati Nature Center today and passed by a tree that we have walked by dozens of times before. Glancing at the bark I instantly recognized it as a Juglans (walnut) species. Then I looked up into the tree and saw the leaves which remind me more of a Betula (river birch) tree. We looked through our tree books and could not positively ID this tree at all. I have no idea what it is. I looked for smaller saplings on the ground but could not find any, so I could not get a good photo of the branches, and forget the leaf scar. We did find some leaves on the ground due to the recent storms. Please ignore the vine creeping up the tree trunk.

    The tree is growing near a small (dry) stream in southeast Ohio.

    BTW, for the benefit of those less knowledgeable (you know, others like me) who are trying to learn plants I am going to always include the common plant names. Because this is an international forum I do agree that the scientific names make more sense here, so I will force myself to use these less familiar names as the primary descriptor. I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence - I know just about everyone on this forum knows far more about plants than I ever will.
     

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  2. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Check out Ulmus (Elm).
     
  3. buckeye

    buckeye Member

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    I would like to see the buds and fruit for confirmation, but I would say it looks like Quercus montana
     
  4. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    It definitely does share some traits with some elms so that is a good suggestion. All of the elms I know have doubly-toothed leaves, but then I only know three elm species and there are probably dozens of species. Our tree books only have 5 different species.
     
  5. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    We have several Quercus montana (chestnut oak) trees on our property, so we are very familiar with them. The bark on chestnut oak is very distinct - it is very deeply V-grooved with the grooves running very long up the trunk. The grooves and bark are almost like a star fruit (not quite, but similar) and the leaves are not so pointed (which I find ironic since Castanea (chestnut) leaves are very pointed).

    You did give us another idea... could this be Quercus Michauxii (Swamp chestnut oak)? We are right at the fringe of its range. Anybody familiar with this tree?

    I really tried to get a good photo of the leaves and fruit, but my camera does not have a good zoom and the branches were very high up. I was hoping to see acorns/samaras/ something.
     
  6. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    We have flipped through just about every page in our tree books. I don't think it can be Quercus Michauxii anymore - leaf stems are too long.

    Now we are thinking Quercus muehlenbergii (Chinquapin oak). I googled this and did see some photos of bark that looked very similar - although they seem to vary quite a bit.

    We are starting to think maybe it could be a hybrid. Regardless I am still not even sure what genus it belongs to. Most oaks have acorns developing now and I don't even see hints of this in any of the photos I took. I think Elms would have dropped their samaras by now making this still possible.

    Still not really sure on this one.
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Looks to be an oak in your last picture.
     
  8. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Looking at last pic,one of the terminal leaves, look to have the bud protected, inside the leaf stalk.( It bulges)
    No idea of the technical term.
    Is it my imagination???
    Any chance of a close up pic.
    Wouldn't that rule out Oaks?
     
  9. buckeye

    buckeye Member

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    I have no doubt that it is an oak. After further review I would agree that the bark isn't deeply furrowed enough to match with Q. montana. The bark does look similar to to Q. muehlenbergii, but leaf character and location are not so much. While leaf character is not the ideal way to identify oaks, I generally think of Chinkapin oak as having a more elongated, narrower leaf, often with a hint of a curve at the tips of the individual teeth on the margins. The other thing about this species is where it grows. At least here in northern Ohio, the only places I run into it is in very dry, chalky, rocky soils....like around limestone quarries.

    You do mention another possibility though, in Q. michauxii. That is one not very common in Ohio, being a more southern species. I have always had difficulty differentiating it from Q. montana, but maybe I haven't focused on bark character enough. It is native to moister, bottomland sites, so that alone might match better where you ran into this specimen.
     
  10. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    After reading your post I googled limestone and "Cincinnati Nature Center":
    http://www.cincynature.org/sites/default/files/Geology trail guide2010.pdf

    This tree was found not too far from this trail. The stream it is located near is not in the lower valley but rather on an intermediate valley (if that makes any sense). The stream rarely has much water and it may just be from rain runoff from the higher elevation.

    I am not very familiar with Chinkipin oaks at all. We have only seen them twice and used leaves and acorns to help identify them. I agree that these leaves do not look like the typical Chinkipin oak leaves. Today we are going back to a park where we know there is a Chinkipin oak. I am going to look more closely at the bark of that tree.

    I still wonder if this is not somehow a hybrid, but I don't know how often oaks hybridize. One of our books (Sibley) shows how leaves of some species can vary when two species cross, and these mutts can be quite different from the pure breds.

    What still bothers me is the lack of acorns (I thought it was a mast year) but then my photo of the branches and twigs is not great.
     
  11. saltcedar

    saltcedar Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Oaks are annoyingly variable to begin with, then they go and hybridize. Wouldn't it
    make sense to go back and look for the parents of this Quercus x godknowswhat
    and look for trees that this intermediate form represents?
     
  12. Jon45150

    Jon45150 Active Member

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    Re: Tree ID help - solved...

    Today we went to Halls Creek which is a 30 minute drive north from where the original tree in this post is located. We found some Chinkapin Oaks and took several photos of the bark and leaves. All of the Chinkapin trees we found were upland. Once again the leaves were too high to reach but we found some leaves on the ground that recently blew down from a storm.

    What we discovered is that the leaves vary a fair amount, even on the same branch. All the leaves in the photo are on the same branch, still attached. Also note the undeveloped acorn on the twig. If one tree can show this much variation on a single specimen there must be at least that much variation between the different trees of the same species.

    The bark is also very similar to the other tree, although less Juglans-like. Both trees had ample moss growing on the surface. This tree also had a barbed wire fence growing straight through the center which I thought was interesting.

    Now I wonder how many "walnut" trees I saw were actually these trees...

    As far as I am concerned this one is solved. Quercus Muehlenbergii (Chinkapin Oak).

    Thank you everyone for your help!
     

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