Identification: Shirofugen or Shogetsu?

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by mononoke, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. mononoke

    mononoke Member

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    I am new to this forum. I read the Shirofugen and Shogetsu thread but still cannot tell the difference. Can someone help me identify the type in the pictures? Thanks!
     

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  2. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Are they all the same tree? I'll rule out Shogetsu because it doesn't go pink or start any pinker than so very pale. These are Shogetsu. Notice the long peduncles (the first stem) and pedicels (the stems attached to the blossoms), and the very fringed petal tips.
    20070424_07_Shogetsu_Cutler.jpg Cutler_20070424_06.jpg

    But I'm not all that convinced about yours being Shirofugen. Shirofugen opens very white and the blossoms do go flourescent pink, particularly from the centre, as in your photos, but can do it from the outside, and the green phylloid pistils in the centre grow in some of the blossoms to look like little leaves. But they also hang on long peduncles and pedicels, and the leaves are bronze if they're not under a canopy, at least at the beginning. Maybe your trees' blossoms are on long stems and it just doesn't appear that way, and with all your sunshine, the blossoms occur much closer together, but it's not a Shirofugen look here. Here's a Vancouver Shirofugen.
    20070415_Seawall_Shirofugen_Cutler_1804.jpg 20070420_05_Nelson_Shirofugen_Cutler.jpg
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    'Pink Perfection'.
     
  4. mononoke

    mononoke Member

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    Thanks for the information, really appreciated!
    Sorry that I did not make it clear on the pictures. The first two photos are from one tree, and the last 3 phones are from another tree.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    'Pink Perfection' is an English introduction raised from seed of 'Shogetsu', thus the resemblance. Although it blooms heavily, its flowers are distinctive in appearance* and it has been on the market over here since about 1959-60 (or earlier) it remains uncommon. The Plant Locator - Western Region (2004, Black-Eyed Susans/Timber Press, Portland) does not list it; I may have seen it offered once or twice, at most.

    *'Pink Perfection' is a prudish name compared to the rich poetic names of other Japanese cherries, but it applies perfectly to the pink flowers of this cultivar. When only some of the flowers are out among the red buds, the pure pink blossom shows to utmost advantage. Among the old garden forms, only 'Daikoku' can match this perfect pink

    --Kuitert, Japanese Flowering Cherries (1999, Timber Press, Portland)
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are some blossom comparisons,
    Shogetsu on the left, Shirofugen on the right
    20080518_Pendrell_ShogetsuVsShirofugen_Cutler_6653r.jpg
    20080518_Pendrell_ShogetsuVsShirofugen_Cutler_6657r.jpg
    20080518_Pendrell_ShogetsuVsShirofugen_Cutler_6663r.jpg
     
  7. mononoke

    mononoke Member

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    These are very good photos for comparison. Thanks a lot.
     
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Well - to me they look very similar when they have the white blossoms. The time to catch them is before they open, when the Shirofugen leaves are (usually) bronze and the Shogetsu leaves are green. Or very late, when the Shirofugen trees are pink and the ground under the Shirofugens is strewn with very pink blossoms, and the ground under Shogetsu trees is thinly covered in white because most of blossoms are drying up on the tree and are only faintly pink or a bit pink in the centres. Ron B keeps saying that Shogetsu turn purple - I've only seen a hint of purple rather than crisp white in the overall Shogetsu tree colouring now.

    My problem is being in an area I don't frequent, whose climate I don't know, and coming across an isolated tree with white blossoms that I won't see again. My comparison isn't helping me with this tree, but then I didn't pull apart the blossoms when I was there. The green leaves with white flowers should make it Shogetsu, particularly since Shirofugens are quite pink by now, but the one shot particularly shows smooth leaf edges, which should rule that out. I've decided now that the climate wasn't as different as I'd thought and it's probably Shogetsu, never mind the leaf edges.
     

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  9. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are some more comparisons, to support what I said in my last note about the differences at the end of blooming.

    Shogetsu - tree colour, ground and blossom colour range. The pink doesn't seem to get much deeper than this. These photos are from two different trees; under the first tree pictured, there are more whole blossoms than single petals on the ground, just as white as these petals.
    20080515_Comox_Shogetsu_Cutler_6339r.jpg 20080515_Comox_Shogetsu_Cutler_6360r.jpg 20080520_Pendrell_Shogetsu_Cutler_6677r.jpg

    Shirofugen - tree colour, ground and blossom colour range.
    20080520_ComoxCardero_Shirofugen_Cutler_6691r.jpg 20080518_BeachThurlow_Shirofugen_Cutler_6624r.jpg 20080520_Pendrell_Shirofugen_Cutler_6679r.jpg
     
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I've been musing about the identification of these trees in their Neighbourhood blog, but that's not really the proper place to do that, so here they are again. These three sets of trees are all on the east side of the Bayshore Hotel. I think I can spot a Shirofugen anywhere, and I originally said that when I noticed these pinky-brown-coloured trees next to the white and green Shirotaes, but the leaves are almost green and the leaf edges are so frilly that I'm leaning toward thinking they're Shogetsu now and the brown impression was just from the bud scales. I have seen Shirofugens that opened with green leaves, but they were under a glass awning in a courtyard. The second and third set of trees here are getting extra heat from the building they're near, which could account for the green leaves, but that's not the case for the first set. The second and third set had blossoms before any of the known Shirofugens in the West End.

    First set - along the driveway. These have very few blossoms open on April 27, 2009.
    20090427_BayshoreDriveway_Cutler_DSC02678.jpg 20090427_BayshoreDriveway_Cutler_DSC02683.jpg

    Second set - along the east wall south of the Starbucks, surrounding two Shirotae trees. These have just opened and have spectacular pompoms of blossoms, not very similar to the other Shogetsu trees I know, but there are areas of tiered layers. I only managed to notice on this set that they don't appear to me to be grafted.
    20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02684.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02685.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02687.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02689.jpg
    20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02690.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02695.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02696.jpg 20090427_BayshoreWalkway_Cutler_DSC02698.jpg
    Are they glands both on the leaf edges and the leaf stems?


    Third set - two trees north of the Starbucks entrance. These were the first to open. They also have the pompoms of blossoms. The leaf colour is right between the bronze of Shirofugen and the green of Shogetsu.
    20090427_BayshoreStarbucks_Cutler_DSC02700.jpg 20090427_BayshoreStarbucks_Cutler_DSC02704.jpg 20090427_BayshoreStarbucks_Cutler_DSC02710.jpg 20090427_BayshoreStarbucks_Cutler_DSC02712.jpg 20090427_BayshoreStarbucks_Cutler_DSC02715.jpg

    Here's my known Shirofugen in the West End, with blossoms just beginning to open and very flashy red bud scales.
    20090427_CarderoComox_Shirofugen_Cutler_DSC02727.jpg 20090427_CarderoComox_Shirofugen_Cutler_DSC02730.jpg

    I'm going to figure this out myself a month from now, when the blossoms either do or do not have phylloid leaves growing from the centres (if yes, they're Shirofugens) and the blossoms and petals on the ground are still quite white or are Kanzan pink coloured (if deep pink, then Shirofugens).
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I decided today that these are 'Shogetsu'. I took a couple of the corymbs to Douglas Justice who said he agreed.

    [Edited by wcutler 2012jun19]In spite of what I said in posting #14, the ones I took to Douglas probably really were the 'Shogetsu', as those ones are easy to reach.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    It didn't take more than a week to figure out that they're definitely Shogetsu [edited 2012june19 by wcutler - I think I'm definitely wrong; see posting #14] - the first trees to bloom are dropping petals from blossoms still quite white. Only some blossoms are a very pale mauve, though the centres are red.
    20090509_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_4695.jpg 20090509_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_4702.jpg 20090509_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_4703.jpg 20090509_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_4693.jpg

    But nothing like the colouring on the Shirofugen I've been using all along for comparison.
    20090509_CarderoComox_Shirofugen_Cutler_4714.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Just to finish the story on these Shogetsu trees at the Bayshore, here they are at the end of blooming, still quite white. Some have no obvious phylloid (leafy) pistils in the centres, but on many, those are extending to close to 2cm, and some have a new petal or two forming in the centre. I don't remember seeing that last year on the tree on Pendrell St, and I've seen it a lot more this year on the Pink Perfections. There's what looks to me like a vexillate filament in there too. The stem in the third photo shows the "indistinct transition from pedicel to calyx" that Kuitert mentions, but a lot of the flowers have a more obvious calyx.
     

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  14. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I hate it when this happens - these supposed Bayshore 'Shogetsu' today have 'Shirofugen' June flowers. I've never seen 'Shogetsu' with June blossoms and those extended phylloid structures that 'Shirofugen' get.

    This group of 'Shirotae'/'Shirofugen', as I'm calling them now, is nearest the entrance road.
    20120619_Bayshore_ShirofugenShirotae2_Cutler_P1250298.jpg 20120619_Bayshore_Shirofugen2_Cutler_P1250302.jpg

    These are on the side of the building, to the south of the Starbucks. It doesn't really matter what that one on the left (last photo in this group) was.
    20120619_Bayshore_ShirofugenShirotae1_Cutler_P1250289.jpg 20120619_Bayshore_Shirofugen1_Cutler_P1250293.jpg 20120619_Bayshore_Shirofugen1_Cutler_P1250294.jpg 20120619_Bayshore_Shirofugen1_Cutler_P1250295.jpg

    These to the right as you enter the Starbucks I still think are 'Shogetsu'. They don't have any flowers. [Edited by wcutler 2013apr13]If I meant immediately to the right, they didn't have flowers because they were 'Shirotae' and had finished blooming long before.
    20120619_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1250303.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  15. Nadia White Rock

    Nadia White Rock Well-Known Member

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    I found some trees after bloom with these phylloids (leafy) pistils in the centres. I decided they were Pink perfection?!?
     
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Nadia, do you mean at the Bayshore? There are no 'Pink Perfection' at the Bayshore. 'Pink Perfection' do that double-story thing, with sepals and a new little flower that's very deep pink in the centre, sort-of like what I was showing in the posting you're replying to, but these were definitely white flowers, not pink.
     
  17. Nadia White Rock

    Nadia White Rock Well-Known Member

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    No, not at the Bayshore, in my area, just tried to guess what it could be and decided that PP. I think in your case your guess is right, Shirofugen
     
  18. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Re: Shirofugen or Shogetsu at Brewers Park

    I cannot resist to take time to document these cherry flowers at Brewers Park at West side of Victoria Drive at East 25 Ave. There are two cherry trees with around 20 flowers this afternoon.
     

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  19. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Well, they're not 'Shirofugen', which at this stage would look very bronze. These look quite green.
    20130413_BayshoreEastAtRoad_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1420161.jpg 20130413_BayshoreEastAtRoad_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1420179.jpg 20130413_BayshoreEastAtRoad_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1420180.jpg

    The ones north of the 'Shirotae' to the right of the Starbucks entrance are also looking very much like 'Shogetsu' at this stage. Anyone who disagrees, speak up now.
    20130413_BayshoreEastside_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1420167.jpg 20130413_BayshoreEastside_Shogetsu_Cutler_P1420175.jpg
     
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  20. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I still agree with my last determination that the late blooming trees at the Bayshore are 'Shogetsu'. Today, the ones near the entrance drive have lost many of their flowers, but none of the flowers have turned pink the way 'Shiro-fugen' are now in this neighbourhood.
    20170517_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_184345.jpg 20170517_Bayshore_Shogetsu_Cutler_174007.jpg
     
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