Identification: Sendai-shidare - Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 7, 2008.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I thought these might be Jo-nioi, or what's still being called Jo-nioi in that thread (I've heard mumblings about maybe renaming that one), but now I think not, unless the bract things are going to change as the blossoms age. These have spiky bracts around the petioles but the bracts around the peduncle don't look spiky, and both sets were spiky in Douglas Justice's Jo-nioi postings. I'm posting them early just in case Douglas wants to make plans to see them (for your own interest, Douglas, not for me). I thought they had a fragrance, but I'm very unreliable with fragrances. They all seem to have wiggly sepals, I'm posting the two locations together because they look the same to me.

    The first tree is at Chilco and Haro and has no open blossoms yet.
    20080407_ChilcoHaro_JoNioi_Cutler_2272.jpg 20080407_ChilcoHaro_JoNioi_Cutler_2278.jpg

    These two are on the same property and I'm assuming they're the same. Last year I thought they were pruned, and maybe they were and I've just caught them before the pruning, or maybe they look like that. This tree is at the left side facing the property on the north side of the 1900 block of Comox.
    20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2283.jpg 20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2285.jpg 20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2286.jpg

    This tree is on the right side of the property.
    20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2292.jpg 20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2302.jpg 20080407_Comox_JoNioi_Cutler_2309.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2009
  2. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    Here are some updated photos from the 1900 block of Comox, north side.
    20080412_Comox_Umbrella_Cutler_3246.jpg 20080412_Comox_Umbrella_Cutler_3248r.jpg 20080412_Comox_Umbrella_Cutler_3255r.jpg 20080412_Comox_Umbrella_Cutler_3262r.jpg 20080412_Comox_Umbrella_Cutler_3269r.jpg
     
  3. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    The individual pictured has clearly been pruned mercilessly, and I'm surprised it looks as good as it does. Whether the pruning was employed to remove diseased bits or just to satisfy some neurotic compulsion is a reasonable question (at least to me), but I'm relatively certain that this is a weeping tree, or would be if it was left to its own devices.

    There are two or three weeping cultivars attributed to P. x yedoensis that are superficially like this tree. From the descriptions I've read, the more elegant of the two is 'Ivensii'. The other, and the one I feel is probably in cultivation in Vancouver, is labelled "weeping yoshino" in the UBC orchard, and is probably 'Shidare-yoshino'. But then, this is a confused name and I'm reluctant to use it. Anyway, I don't think that this is either of those.

    The plant pictured here may be 'Sendai-shidare', which is doubtfully attributed to P. x yedoensis (see description in Kuitert, Japanese Flowering Cherries, pages 201, 202). I'd say it's something else entirely, judging by the bud shape, narrow sepals and lack of pubescence, but what, I could not say.
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    Thanks, Douglas. I'll go back to calling it "umbrella". Here are some photos with the open blossoms of the one hiding behind a little hedge at the SW corner of Haro and Chilco. The calyxes didn't seem to fit your description of Snowdrop. It still looks the same as the pruned ones.
     

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  5. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    Here's one of the Comox St trees growing out on July 8, 2009. The caretaker cuts it back every year so that it's not dragging on the ground. She says it's fifty years old. The second photo is the tree at the corner of Haro and Chilco, taken July 13.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  6. tee212

    tee212 Member

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    wow thats one sexy tree! :)
     
  7. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    tee212, if you buy one, make sure it comes with a name, and tell us what it is! There are a lot of different pendulous white cherries, though, and none of the ones we have names for seem to be this one.

    I'd been trying to convince Douglas to take cuttings from the first one (for which we've been given permission), but now I think I understand what's not a good idea about that for this tree. If it's grafted high, which I think it must be, then in 50 years it hasn't really gained much height above that point. Douglas's cuttings are to be grown on their own rootstock. For this tree, that would make, what I see being called for some pendulous cherries, a ground cover form, as the branches would grow to several feet (who knows how long) from a height of maybe only two feet. I don't think I've ever seen one of those; I can't imagine they'd do very well.
     
  8. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    NOT Shidare-yoshino, but what? Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    An unknow white flowers 5% on north side West 45Ave between Cambie to Fairchild St. by Safeway: 150 cm high and 200 cm diameter, semiweeping, pale pink bud, white flower, overlapped petals, 3.5 cm diameter
     

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  9. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    I'd call the one on the left fully weeping.
     
  10. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    I am talking about the weeping cherry trees beside the Akebono. I wanted to show the size of the tree. I didn't notice its smelling.
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    Oh that one. I wanted to comment on that, but I thought that was different from what you were posting. I'm going to delete my comment and I stand by what I said in my blog about everything looking the same to me now. Isn't that our umbrella in What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous? Same long narrow sepals, leaves look similar. I photographed a not in bloom 'Shidare-yoshino' in the Seattle arboretum that had the contorted shape of our umbrella trees, so I wondered if they might be that.
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    Don't know if all the close-up anatomical details fit but I thought of weeping Yoshino cherry also. I think I may have seen more than one selection here, both North American Landscape Trees (1996 Arthur Lee Jacobson) and Japanese Flowering Cherries (1999 Wybe Kuitert) mention that more than one occurrence has been introduced. Jacobson also describes the weeping Prunus x yedoensis 'Ivensii' as having been present in North America:

    Introduced to the U.S. in 1937 by the Arnold Arboretum. Extremely rare here. Sold in the 1960s by Scanlon nursery of Ohio

    I saw flowering specimens of a weeping form of Yoshino cherry as recently as perhaps last year in a local outlet. Jacobson says these (P. x yedoensis f. perpendens = P. x yedoensis 'Shidare-yoshino' = P. x yedoensis 'Pendula') have been on the North American market since before 1934.
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    I deleted my Oshima guess that I made when I thought the blossoms belonged to the upright trees, but I keep thinking the blossoms do look similar. Kuitert (Japanese Flowering Cherries) mentions 'Amagi-yoshino' that has the Oshima cherry as its seed parent, giving it "twig color, flower, calyx, and sepals". It has the Edo-higan cherry as its pollen partent, giving it its "almost umbellate inflorescences". that's supposed to give it pubescence on calyx and pedicels, which I didn't notice on our photos. Some of the inflorescences on all these trees look like umbels and others not. But the book doesn't say what shape that tree is.
     
  14. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    Jacobson doesn't mention it, so it may not have been brought over here - at least under that name. If you Google for pictures of 'Shidare-yoshino' similar flowers and leaves-at-time-of-flowering as the Lin tree come up. 'Ivensii' appears to produce a gappier-looking flower more pear- or plum-like in general aspect.
     
  15. stoneangel

    stoneangel Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    Hey! I found one of those today on Comox by the Chilco mini-park. It was about 6' tall. No almond scent; I was right underneath it.

    20100315_ComoxSE Chilco_unknown_jCurrie_DSCN0832.jpg 20100315_ComoxSE Chilco_unknownBlossom_jCurrie_DSCN0833.jpg DSCN0834.jpg
     
  16. stoneangel

    stoneangel Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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  17. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    Again we see the straggly habit of a weeping Yoshino type. Internet photos show similar-looking flowers on these also.

    The bunching of the flowers near shoot tips is also said to be characteristic.
     
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Single white Weeping cherry?

    There are a few characteristics that would rule out this id:
    1 - 'Kojo-no-mai' is a shrub
    2 - It blooms early season (or late winter), while this tree is blooming with mid-season trees, coming into bloom now after 'Akebono'. Here's a description.
    3 - The sepals look quite different. You can scroll down on this page to see a photo of the backs of the flowers.

    I do always wonder with this weeping Yoshino thing what it would look like if it were not grafted and whether it would be growing along the ground.

    The anatomical details, like absence of hairs, is that a problem for a weeping Yoshino id?.

    And this would be the name: Prunus x yedoensis 'Shidare-yoshino', as shown on the marker in the Seattle Arboretum, and not Prunus x yedoensis 'Shidare Yoshino' as shown on almost all the nursery internet pages? And the U. Conn page which says
    That's this tree? And what about the 'Washi-no-o' comment?

    gardenbreizh.org has a photo with very similar-looking blossoms and spells it the way the Arboreturm does.
     
  19. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    Actually, in this thread
    What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous
    Douglas Justice said he was reluctant to call what I think is the same cultivar 'Shidare-yoshino'. Now I've gone and called it that, mostly so we could distinguish Joseph's two "single white weeping" postings.

    Last year I did talk to the caretaker of the Comox St tree (that stoneangel posted); she only knows that the two trees are 50 years old.

    [edited 20101210 by wcutler: the referenced thread is this thread now, as I've merged the threads, so the reference is to a posting below.]
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  20. stoneangel

    stoneangel Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    That little tree is 50 years old?!
     
  21. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    They prune it every year. Look under the outside branches. It's pretty gnarly.
     
  22. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    On April 8, I visited Koganei Park in the suburb of Tokyo and found a cherry looked like your Umbrella trees. It was about 2 meter high and had a name plate of ‘Sendai-shidare’
    20100408_KoganeiPark_.Izaki 106.jpg 20100408_KoganeiPark_.Izaki 108.jpg 20100408_KoganeiPark_.Izaki 111.jpg
    20100408_KoganeiPark_.Izaki 112.jpg 20100408_KoganeiPark_.Izaki 114.jpg

    Gakken book (page 70) explains it like below; (my translation)
    Sendai-shidare (Cerasus lannesiana ‘Sendai-shidare’ Ohwi)
    Number of petals : 5
    Diameter of the flower: 2.8~3.6 cm
    Garden variety of Sato-zakura. Tree can grow up to about 4 m. Branches grow sideways and gradually weep. Shapes of the flowers and calyxes have characters of Yama-zakura or Ohshima-zakura. But it doesn’t have characters of Edo-higan like Sidare-zakura. All the cherries called as Shidare-yama-zakura, Yama-zakura-shidare, Fugen-shidare and Yoshino-shidare are thought to be the same cultivar. The records of this cultivar can go back to 1960s but it is thought to be cultivated for a long time.

    Wendy, you thought they were Shidare-yoshino and I thought they were Shidare-yama-zakura, but they must be scientifically the same.

    This must be the one I saw in Hama-rikyu. It was dark. We couldn’t go near and recognize. Linda and I were wondering it was Somei-yoshino or not.
    20100405_hamarikyuPark_Izaki 001.jpg
     
  23. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    Thanks, Mariko. Joseph Lin and I dragged Douglas Justice over to one of our umbrella trees last week, and Douglas thought (I hope I'm remembering this right) the absence of pubescence (hairs) on the pedicels indicated that it's not yedoensis hybrid, so not 'Shidare-yoshino', which would mean it's not 'Sendai-shidare'.

    Can you find something that says that 'Sendai-shidare' can have glabrous (hairless) stems? I guess you can't get close enough to the blossoms on this one to see if there are hairs on the pedicels? You can borrow our ladder.

    The blossoms look quite similar, though I wouldn't have recognized the tree as being the same. Our trees are both grafted and heavily limb-pruned for shape. I'm not sure, though, how our trees got to have such twisted limbs.
     
  24. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Shidare-yoshino - Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season

    Wendy, 'Sendai-shidare has characters of Yama-zakura' means hairless!
    In 'Kono-hana-sakuyahime' there is a thread of Shidare-Somei-yoshino and it has hairs. Shidare-yamazakura there have a scientific name of Sendai-shidare and no hair. Shidare-somei-yoshino is a hybrid of Ohshima-zakura and Shidare-zakura. It is different from Sendai-shidare.

    I think Yoshino-shidare is different from Sidare-Somei-yoshino. Real cherries in Yoshino Mountains are Yama-zakuras, not Somei-yoshino. So I think Yoshino-shidare has characters of Yama-zakura.
    But as a name, Yoshino-shidare and Shidare-yoshino are not good for this tree. Because people who don't know the fact Yoshino-cherry is Yama-zakura might confuse. In Vancouver I heard people call Akebono and Somei-yoshino as Yoshino cherry many times.

    (In Tokyo no one say Yoshino-zakura. People say Somei-yoshino or just Sakura. Not all the people in Tokyo know about cherries very well. I heard some people looking at Sirotae said 'it's not Sakura'. Here Sakura means Somei-yoshino. People in Tokyo think Somei-yoshino is a cherry of Tokyo or Japan!)
     
  25. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single white blossoms, mid-season, pendulous

    I'm thinking about our Umbrella trees today because I just passed this in its Autumn colours. Kuitert doesn't have a photo of 'Sendai-shidare'. There's one on this Jardins Botanique Japonais page, translated, about a third of the way down. It shows the narrow sepals. And Mariko is making a case for that name in the NOT Shidare-yoshino, but what? Single white Weeping cherry, mid-season thread. [edited 20101210 by wcutler: that's this thread now, as I've merged that into this, so Mariko's case is in a posting below]

    Here are several photos of 'Sendai-shidare' at
    http://sigesplants.chicappa.jp/Cerasus_serrulata_'Sendai-shidare'.html​
    (translated)
    . They all show narrow sepals. I have no idea what kind of site this is, but for future reference, here's their photographic index of cherries (translated).

    Well?
     

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010

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