RAIN RAIN... Please help!

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Atapi, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    We have received several all days of raining this week in Virginia and when I check the JM trees that I just planted recently - they are soaked in a hole of water. The area that I live in is full of clay so I dig the hole larger and deeper and planted the trees with the crown even a bit above the ground level.
    Unfortunately with many inches of rain, the water can not receded quick enough so now the root balls are in the pool of water. HELP!
    How long can the tree stay in the water before the roots get damaged?.
    I will build a trench to divert the water but in the mean time is there any way to save them now.
    Any suggestion is appreciated.
    Thanks, Steven
     
  2. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    I would put some plastic sheet on the soil, although at least some water can infiltrate from the side, but what else can you do?...
     
  3. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Hi Steven,

    Sorry I did not get the chance to reply in the other thread, but this one certainly got my attention.

    We have lots of clay in our native soil, so I know all about the waterlogged root ball when trying to plant in the native soil. This will only get worse in the Spring and really late Winter will be an issue too.

    When you dig a hole in clay, even with some extra drainage in the bottom of the hole, you are essentially creating a bathtub for your maple. Water will always take the path of least resistance. So when the rootball consists of light and airy free draining soil, the water will just make its way in and fill up all the available space in the root ball. This limits the amount of oxygen available to the roots. Roots need oxygen to take up water, so the leaves will not tolerate sun in this condition, because they can't keep up with moisture loss. Sounds weird that the tree is starved from water when there is an abundance of it in the root zone. This is just the tip of the iceberg, a whole host of disease problems set in with wet roots and poor drainage. This must be fixed or you will loose your maples.

    To fix the problem, you must replant all your trees in this area. The beds must be mounded up with the bottom of the root ball planted above the ground level. Please note, this will make your maples less drought tolerant in the summer, but extra water in summer is a small price to pay for healthy maples.

    It's hard to recommend what soil to use to mound the beds with, since I don't know what's available in your area. I use a mixture of high quality topsoil, composted peat, and pine bark fines and chips. I also mix in some haydite, but this may not be available in your area or it may not be cost effective. One product that I enjoy using is Garden Magic Topsoil (only 2.99 for a 40lb bag in my area) and Garden Magic Michigan Peat. Be sure to use pine bark chips, fines, and or mini nuggets. Do not used dyed mulch or shreadded mulch. (dyed is usually grinded shipping pallets which create mold and add no organic matter to the soil, shreaded tends to matt together, causing water runoff and water related issues in the root zone). You can use an all purpose sand in place of haydite if you want, but please note this is not play sand, it's very gritty and made up of a variety of sizes.

    If the planting site is a low area of your yard, then extra steps should be done to prepare the soil below as an insurance policy for extra rainfall. The clay below can be dug out about a foot. Add a combination of all purpose sand, pine bark and topsoil. When mixing it, do the crumble test...Take some soil in your hand and squeeze it, it should crumble apart. If it doesn't add more pine bark and all purpose sand, mix and test again until it crumbles. Fill in the area below your planting site. Mound it slightly above the native soil line.

    Then mix up your planting mix, and mound the soil up so that the root ball is completely above the native soil and the sides are completely covered with your planting mix. (note that smaller root balls will need to have extra soil in the hole so that the top of the root ball is in line with the top of the surrounding larger root balls, never plant a small maple too deep, the trunk should not have dirt or mulch against it). Make sure it is a gentle mound along the outsides of the overall larger mound (or planting bed). If the sides are too steep of a slant, the soil will erode away. Once the trees are planted and the edge of the mound is properly graded, then mulch the bed with pine bark chips. I prefer chips that are 1-2" in size. I feel it allows the roots to breath and allows the water to be directed downward, while still offering a good amount of coverage to help cool the roots from summer sun.

    On the outer edge of the bed, create a 4" wide by 2" deep trench. You can dig it out a little deeper and fill it with some clay compacted to 2" deep for water to run off into. This also helps keep grass and weeds from spreading into your planting bed. It also give you a nice margin for error when using the trimmer or mower around the bed. The trench will catch the grass clippings and they will stay out of your planting bed, while acting as a place for extra water to gather away from your roots.

    The elevated mound will not only provide a suitable growing site for your maples, it will also provide an elevated stage for the smaller ones to shine. It will also add a little bit of a vertical element in the landscape.

    Hope this helps. Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  4. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,

    Thank you for great reply.
    The rain finally stopped this afternoon after poured 6-8" of rain in the last 4-5 days. I went out and checked some of the holes, some are full of water and others are soaking wet. I felt so depressed and worried that they may not make it thru.

    Your raised-bed recommendation sounds great but after I just finished putting them down now going thru another round will take me a several more weekends. Honestly, I was able to complete the first round due to the govt shutdown last week but now I am back to work :)).

    So for short term rescue:
    1. Can I use the shopvac and suck some of the water out from the hole tomorrow at least they are wet but not drowned in the water?.

    2. OR it is better to pull them out of the hole and let them air dry for a few days?. Before the rain, I did an experiment by dig a hole 18" dia. by 16" depth then on Tues it rained almost all day and the hole was full of water but on Wedn 1/2 of the water is gone but it rained again Thur all the way to Sun and the hole was full all the time.

    3. How long can the roots survive in the hole with water?. Am I too late to save them now?.

    4. Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks, Steven

    PS: I am not familiar with the haydite and sand and other mixed that you used but I will look into it and try to use them from here on.
    I normally mix my soil in a wheel barrel with 1cu-ft of Miracle-gro topsoil, 1 cu-ft of Mini pine bark nugget, 1/2cu-ft of leaf compost, few shovels of aged horse manure, few shovels of small round pebbles, sprinkle of mealbone/holly tone/coffee ground/10-10-10. I normally remove the native clay soil from the hole, fill the bottom with pebble+leaf/branch compost then add the mixed soil along when planting the maple tree. And I mulch them with the pine bark nuggets, large nugget for larger tree and mini for the sall maples, see photo. IMG_0237.jpg
    Is there any of the above ingredient that I should not use?. Tks
     
  5. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,

    The sun is coming out finally. I just checked again by scooping the shovel down the edge of the holes and most of them don't show water anymore but of course they are still wet. A few trees on the low level are still show water logged that I just dug up, fill the hole with more soils to raise the roots ball up higher. I will definitely take more time to raise more rootballs.

    In the mean time, do you think I am at least OK (temporarily); even though the soil is still wet. I know am not out of the woods yet because there will be more rain, snow... in the future that I have to apply your long term solution.

    Is there any sign from the trees that I need to watch for in the next couple weeks?.

    And any additional short term solution is appreciated. Thanks,
    Steven

    Just bought me a big bag of Vermiculite to mix with the soil from now on. What is the mixing ratio for the vermiculite?.tks.
     
  6. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    I think short term you should be okay, but I would address it as soon as your schedule allows this month. Hopefully the rest of the month will be dry. Since it's late in the season, the sun is not as intense and the moisture requirements of the trees drop (so leaf burning could be less of an issue). If the water is draining slowly, then it's not necessary to take drastic actions like pulling the trees out and letting them sit or using a shopvac. (it should be noted that I never recommend letting a tree just sit above ground. Precautions should be taken such as mounding mulch or wrapping burlap around the root ball, or planting it in a cedar box; in shade to recover from over saturated roots / sitting in standing water)

    The best advice is to not over-react and do what you can to fix the problem in the short term, which would be to re-plant the trees to prevent this from happening again.

    Signs of trouble would be browning and dropping leaves, failing new growth, and the overall foliage in the canopy will become more sparse.

    Dehydrated cow manure is not something I use for planting my trees.
    [But one great use for dehydrated cow manure is it's use for overwintering roses. Mound some up around the rose bush when the ground freezes and it helps protect the roots and slowly feeds the rose over winter. Early Spring (what's left) can be spread out into the mulch and the rose will reward you with an abundance of blooms. (we used to be into roses early in our experimental phase of gardening about 10 years ago, but they are a thing of the past for us).]

    Most soils or planting mixes provide the trees with what they need. Some use starter fertilizers or beneficial soil microbes as part of their planting routine, but I have not really noticed that they do much for me in my garden. (But if they work well for others then I say go for it, don't let my experiences stop you) I once used plant-tone when planting, but quit when I ran out a few years ago and I really don't notice much of a difference in establishing trees without it.

    I would not use 10-10-10 in the planting mix. It could burn the roots. It's really too much for a Japanese Maple in my opinion and it's not a good idea to use 10-10-10 on a tree that is trying to establish itself. It's also the wrong time of year to promote growth. Things should be slowing down and new growth should be hardening off in order to prepare for winter. High nitrogen is also a contributing factor to disease outbreak.

    I do not have much experience with composting, but I would think sticks and stuff should be composed, rather than being used in the bottom of a hole for drainage. Some concerns come to mind, but I don't know enough for certain to comment on the benefits and or risks associated with using sticks in a planting hole.

    Vermiculite is something else that I don't use. I experimented with it in my potting mix, with undesirable results. I found that when vermiculite is combined with composted peat that the soil mix retained too much water and the roots health was compromised. I ended up re-potting the couple maples that I tried after two months into the season after signs of trouble. Both trees recovered in larger containers of free draining soil mix, but it was a set back that season. The next season normal vigor was restored. But soil mixes respond and perform differently in containers than they do in the landscape. I would get advice from someone who has experience and successful results in using vermiculite for advice on ratios. One manufacture that I came across on the web recommended 1 part vermiculite to 1 part soil with no further information, so advice / direction from someone with successful experience in using it in their planting mix is recommended.

    I hate when my responses are filled with don't(s). I wish I could be more help in providing solutions for your questions. As long as the planting site is free draining, allows the roots to remain moist with out becoming too saturated, the soil has organic mater to feed the tree, the soil does not become too compacted, and the roots can breathe; then your maples will be happy.
     
  7. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your prompt input. I will keep a closed eye on these trees in the next few weeks until the soil is back to normal.
    I did replant two trees today, one is going right back to the hole and the other was too wet so I let it sat on a piece of tarp for a few hrs and planted back to a hole. The rest are still wet but not logged with water. You can feel when push the shovel down the edge of the hole, I can hear and feel the water resistance sound. I left a hole from the edge of the planting hole from some other trees in order to observe their wetness in the next couple days. If they are wet but no water logged, will they be OK?.

    Yes, I definitely will re-plant these trees this month and next month since they were just planted in the last few weeks; hopefully there is not much roots establishing since.

    I will take your advice about soil mixing and will begin to do more diligent on mixing and fertilizing them. I understand every gardener will have different recipe of their mixed but I have learn quite a lot from our JM forum. I wish I could find someone in the same area where I live that had some success along with the weather, climate, soil condition, avai. ingredients... Please don't worry about the don't comments, I have learned a lot from those don't(s) too. Thanks.

    BTW, I saw Charlie posted many nice fall colors from his garden, how are yours?. Over in VA, it seems to be a bit slower compares with Oregon and Washington. Some of mine already dropped their leaves as soon as they turn to the falls color and last week rain was also part of it. I hope you have a nice falls color likes Charlie has.

    Many thanks and cheers, Steven.
     
  8. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Hi Steven,

    Consider doing some research on landscape supply, yard supply, or "mulch" providers in your area. The ones that cater to landscapers tend to have good planting mixes that are tailored to your climate. If you are finding it difficult to source good ingredients for your soil mix, then seek out a supplier that provides a mix that works well for your area.

    Since I don't know where you are, I did a search of my area and found these as an example:

    http://www.kurtz-bros.com/product-category/landscapes/soils/ (I would get, for example the "bed mix" or "all weather mix" add some pine bark and you are good to go)

    http://www.ohiomulch.com/collections/bulk-soil-delivery

    All I did to find them was to use Google maps, put in my zip code, pulled up the map, and used the "search near by" and searched for mulch. A list of companies and (if they have one) their website comes up.

    I have found the quality of some of the products offered by big box stores has dropped significantly over the past 5 years. Garden centers and landscape suppliers tend to offer better quality and many times the price (for what you get) is much better.

    Fall Colors- are just starting here. My bonsai are always the first to leaf out and the first to get fall colors too. Some of them are just getting started. Two are at peak. I will get some photos once the colors, time, and weather cooperates.
     
  9. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,

    Thanks again for the additional info. Yes, I will stop by some local nurseries esp. those that carry more JMs and ask their input about the soil for the bed as well as for planting trees.
    After this rain episode, I am thinking may be I need to dig the hole not too deep but wider since our maples fiber roots tend to grow side way more than deep down. And if I place the rootball slightly below the ground, is the depth of the hole still required?.
    One more question: if the soil in the hole are still wet but no water, is it OK for the tree?.

    I live in Northern VA, near D.C and only 10-20% of the leaves around here are just beginning to turn color, normally not until Halloween time. I know up in Shenandoah valley near West VA, the leaves are turning a bit earlier.
     
  10. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    That looks like a nice bed you made. I'm not sure what you can do short term for the water issue but for long term, that looks like a nice spot to raise the whole bed. I know it would be a lot of work but once it's done, no more worries. I feel just raising the planting spot creates a high risk for drying out. My soil has clay and the water does not drain well just like yours. I have a few maples surviving ground level planting but they are not doing well. The ones I've planted in fully raised beds are doing much better. I don't have to water anything which is a big deal to me because I don't have the time. My raised areas are large though, almost like making a natural looking hill. If you only raise right around the planting you surely have to water on a regular schedule. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, just don't wait too long, these maples really hate wet feet.
     
  11. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    I second this advice. My term mounding up the bed was meant the same as raised bed. Rufretic just has a better way of getting that point across than I do.
     
  12. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rufretic and John,

    Let me make sure I understood both of you before I go too far again :)).
    - Is ground level planting mean the crowd of the tree levels with the ground?.
    - Mounding up or rasing the planting spot mean the bottom of the rootballs either flush or barely below the ground level?.

    Since I have planted over 30 trees recently, here is my understand for my raising bed. I am now going back to replant them one-by-one with raising their rootballs above the ground leaving only about 6 inches below the ground level. I also plan to fill the space among/around those mounding trees from 2-4" with soil+mini nuggets+mulch. Am I on the right track for your recommendation above?. Please advise.

    Also when Rufretic wrote "I don't have to water anything which is a big deal to me because I don't have the time.". I am not sure i fully understand what you meant 'don't have to water' here. Can you please elaborate a bit more?.
    Is 'wet feet' here means soaking with waterlogged or just being wet?. Because I have checked my trees and most of them are not waterlogged but sure still wet.

    Thank you so much for your insight, Steven
     
  13. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    The point made about the two trees planted at ground level is one worth noting.

    My Dad and Mom just retired. I designed a beautiful landscape for them. My wife helped them install everything. We did all raised beds because they have all clay too. Everything that we helped and I supervised the install did great. My Dad thought trees must be planted in the ground so he went along with our planting techniques but was really fighting with the idea.

    Well we decided we needed one more tree for a small new bed. We helped pick out a nice fern leaf maple and since it was getting late, so he told us he would be able to plant it with out our help.

    Well next time we went over, to our surprise he planted the tree too low and dug a big hole in the clay. My wife freaked out and was so worried that if she didn't replant it correctly that the tree would die. I assured her that it would not die right away and maybe it would be a slow decline. Well it took a wet spring this year for my Dad to realize it needed to be replanted. He decided to wait untill this fall. The tree struggled all season. A few weeks ago he called to say he replanted the tree and he made a point to say tell your wife not to worry anymore, that he did it right this time. Ironically enough he just called me this week to tell me how surprised he was to see the tree respond so well to getting out if that clay. He said he could tell the tree was so happy now and that I should tell my wife that she was right.

    The wet feet thing is so true. Even if you dig a bigger hole in clay, its only a matter of time before they get wet feet again. In clay soil the y must be planted in raised beds (mounded) in order to remain healthy long term.
     
  14. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Point is well taken. I can't go to sleep with my feet wet either. I am a full believer now :)).
    Now get to work, Steven.
    Thanks.
     
  15. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    I made a drawing to help. One is a dead maple with wet feet planted in a hole dug into clay. The other is a drawing of two maples planted in a raised bed, they are happy maples with no wet feet. Please note that the drawings are not to scale.
     

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  16. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Haha, that's great! Much easier to see it rather than trying to explain it. Nice job.
     
  17. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    I was just saying if you only raise a small area around the root ball, you will have to water regularly to pevent the roots from drying out. But if you raise an entire bed, it will not dry out near as quickly.
     
  18. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Wow! a picture is worth a thousand words.
    I am crystal clear now, I just need to get to work before the winter arrives and hope to see many more happy maple faces next Spring.

    Thank you all for your sharing, Steven.
     
  19. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Very convincing piece of artistry ;-)
     
  20. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Thank you rufretic, Steven, and AlainK. The drawing of the maple is no Picasso, but it happens to be one of the best smiley faces I have drawn in a long time. Glad to hear my drawing effectively gets the point across.
     
  21. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,

    Quick update, I have few more trees left to raise this weekend then I will work on mulching the space in between trees. Hopefully this will take care of the clay/waterlogged from now on.

    For this upcoming winter, is there anything that I need to do to protect these 'raised' rootballs from cold/snow since they are no longer in-ground?. I have some extra falls leaves from large trees, can I pile the rootballs with these leaves?. I don't think I can make enough donuts to wrap around them like you suggest with the planter pots but I can mound them up.

    Thanks so much, Steven.
     
  22. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    As long as the whole bed is raised up like in the picture I drew, then the geothermal heat from the ground will keep the roots warm. I add some extra mulch to the surface as an extra effort to insulate the roots, but nothing excessive.
     

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