Oaks: Quercus myrsinifolia

Discussion in 'Fagaceae (beeches, oaks, etc.)' started by Poetry to Burn, Jul 12, 2008.

  1. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Wondered if anyone north of me is growing Myrsinifolia?

    I got a small plant from Colvos Creek about 3 yrs ago. It's become a favorite. This year its had 3 growth spurts and it's starting to get some form. the newly opening leaves are great looking. It grows in very fast draining soil in full sun.

    I am growing this tree in Cape May NJ the very southern tip of the state. Winter lows are in the single digits F.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 17, 2008
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,327
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    Obviously not due north of you, but there are several planted in gardens in Britain; the northernmost I know of is at Edinburgh Royal Botanic Gardens, at 56°N latitude.
     
  3. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    I've been a lurker around this board off and on for a while, but thought I'd post a reply on this thread.

    Although I'm actually further South than you, I am in an area most consider colder in the winter than you. So, here's my input.

    I grow Quercus myrsinifolia here in zone 6 Kansas and it's done fine. It's been through about -12°F without problem. Mine is just finishing up it's third flush of growth right now and it's about 25' tall and 20' wide. It took it a couple of years to really get established for me before it started growing at a faster, what appears to be more normal rate though. I purchased mine mail-order from a nursery in Western Tennessee. It's a really nice tree and I've never had any sapsucker damage of any kind on it yet, even though there are quite a few flying around here.

    Also, I know most authors combine Q. myrsinifolia and Q. bambusifolia, but in my opinion they are distinct and different, at least enough to be 2 distinct varieties of the same species. Q. bambusifolia is much more (sub-)tropical in distribution than Q. myrsinifolia being found only in extreme Southern China and down into tropical SE Asia(references which list Q. myrsinifolia in Southern China and SE Asia(like Flora of China) are using a combined native range of these 2 and you won't find typical Q. myrsinifolia in these areas), and it's leaves are at least 1/3 longer and narrower than Q. myrsinifolia. In most cases it's leaves are 50% or more longer than typical Q. myrsinifolia. Q. myrsinifolia is native in temperate Eastern China and higher mountain elevations down into SE China. Q. bambusifolia is probably not hardy North of zone 8, while Q, myrsinifolia is hardy to zone 6, which is another significant difference between the 2.

    I never saw any wild Q. bambusifolia North of Southern Guangdong(I also saw it in Northern Vietnam, and Northern Thailand) nor any wild Q. myrsinifolia South of this same area(I saw it all along Eastern China as far North as Nanjing and Hefei). There are several arboretum in Southern China(Hong Kong Botanical Gardens, Hangzhou Botanical Garden, Kunming Botanical Garden, etc.) which have both planted(Chinese botanists still seperate the 2 species) side by side and they are unmistakably different even from a distance.
     
  4. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    Thanks Kman,

    Appreciate the info. How long has your plant been in the ground there? Did you prune or train for form at all?


    Michael it does seem improbable that a myrsinifolia is growing due north in North Cape May but it's entirely possible.
     
  5. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    Mine has been in the ground for 14 years. It was planted as a 12" seedling. I didn't really prune it at all for the first 10 years or so. I was interested in it building up as much size as quickly as it could. It has 2 main trunks, but has in the past tried to send up a third one, but I trimmed them off. It seems to naturally grow as a broad rounded tree and mine does too.
     
  6. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    Sounds like a great tree and rare for your area. Can you post a photo of it?
     
  7. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    I haven't taken a photo of it and it' difficult to get a good one because it's in amongst a Southern Magnolia and a Quercus canbyi, but I'll work on it. I did measure it though, and it's roughly 22' tall and 18' wide.
     
  8. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Re: Chinese Evergreen Oak

    First, I'd like to apologize for replying soooo late. I completely forgot about this thread! I guess it's at least easier to see the Quercus myrsinifolia in the winter since the deciduous stuff around is bare right now.

    I went out and took a photo of my Quercus myrsinifolia here in Eastern Kansas. For perspective the distance from the ground to the gutters on the house behind the tree is 18'(5.5m) and this tree is about 5'(1.5) taller than the gutters. On the left in the photo is a Magnolia grandiflora and on the upper right corner you might be able to make out some green leaves kind of in the background(but still in front of the roof of the house) and those are from Quercus canbyi. Here's the photo:
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,157
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    FLORA OF CHINA describes it under Cyclobalanopsis.

    http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=210000392

    Note that two different instances of Quercus bambusifolia being authored are known, one by Fortune and another by Hance. The one given as a synonym of Cyclobalanopsis myrsinifolia is Q. bambusifolia Fort.

    Jacobson, NORTH AMERICAN LANDSCAPE TREES (1996, Ten Speed, Berkeley) notes that Q. myrsinaefolia is

    "Uncommon in North America, and very frequently mislabeled says B. Yinger"

    One in Redmond, WA was 44' tall during 1988. It was growing in the courtyard of a parks department building on a river flat where cold air probably sits in winter. I do not know its current condition but it was the biggest one I've seen myself when I was last there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  10. emery

    emery Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,694
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Thanks for the interesting thread. I am now planning on planting Q. myrsinifolia, hopefully in spring if my source really has it.

    kman, are you saying the foliage is persistant in Kansas?

    Also, how does this oak do with swampy conditions in winter, does anyone know?

    Thanks!

    -E
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,157
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Might get a little damp around the one in Redmond some years but I would not drop a new specimen into a mire.
     
  12. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    emery, yes it's 100% completely evergreen for me here in Kansas. It's never had any damage at all. It has had some very minor leaf burning around the edges of some leaves on it's Southern side 1 winter out of the last 15(including this winter). I'd rate it right up there with Magnolia grandiflora in hardiness(solid zone 6 if you have hot summers).
     
  13. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Actually, Quercus bambusifolia Hance in B.Seemann, Bot. Voy. Herald: 415 (1857) is listed as a synonym for Quercus myrsinifolia Blume, Mus. Bot. 1: 305 (1851). While Quercus bambusifolia Fortune, Gard. Chron. 1860: 170 (1860), nom. nud. is listed as a synonym for Quercus glauca Thunb. in A.Murray, Syst. Veg. ed. 14: 858 (1784). The plants I was talking about in Asia are usually lumped in with Q. myrsinifolia Blume by Western authors, while most Eastern authors still seperate the 2 and I happen to agree with them on this one. Also, depending on where you stand on Cyclobalanopsis, it's still accepted as either a sub-genus within Quercus(Kew uses this) or as a seperate genera(Flora of China uses this).
     
  14. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Thanks for the follow up Kman.

    I also got a pair of Quercus gilva. I have not been able to learn much about this plant. In my limited investigations I concluded that it is grouped under Cyclobalanopsis.

    Appreciate any further info.
     
  15. kmanblue

    kmanblue Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    I didn't notice much Q. gilva when I was in Asia. I don't think it's all that common. I will say I only remember seeing it twice in tropical to nearly tropical areas though, like Hong Kong and I think I saw it in Kunming, but I don't have any photos of it, so that memory might not be quite accurate.
     
  16. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Thanks for that info. The pair I'm growing are in the same garden in NJ. The growth is slower but the site is also more shaded and has root competition. So if they were accurately labeled they've handled single digit F and are at least z7.
     
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,157
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Note that specific individual minimum temperatures do not relate directly to USDA zones. The temperature ranges associated with each zone are representative average minimums only. Zone 7 occasionally gets colder than 0F, Zone 8 below 10F, and so on. The lowest temperature a plant will take and which USDA zone it is hardy to are two different things. To be hardy in a particular USDA zone a plant often has to be hardy to a temperature below the range given for that zone - sooner or later it may get below that range there. In order to avoid losses the USDA web site recommends choosing plants rated one zone hardier than the zone you are in.

    When commercial sources makes statements like "Hardy to USDA Zone 8 - 10 to 20 degrees F" then until I find out otherwise I assume the plant kills back between 10 and 20 degrees F. - and is therefore not, in fact hardy to USDA 8.
     
  18. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Good point Ron. I should have left it at "they've handled single digits".

    The USDA zone maps appear to be due for recalibration in light of recent weather patterns. In Philly I think we've (officially) dropped below 0F one time in the last 20 years.
     
  19. K Baron

    K Baron Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,032
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    North Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Your oak tree should survive these temps. unless you planted it in an area not appropriate in situe.

    Pennsylvania is not as cold as you would believe, I should think you will have great success with your specimen.
     
  20. Ron B

    Ron B Esteemed Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,157
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Next map supposed to be much better, using a much better process.
     
  21. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Any info on the next generation of zone maps that you can share or direct us to?
     
  22. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Kbaron,

    See post #1 the tree is growing in West Cape May, NJ. This island is surrounded by the Delaware Bay and Atlantic Ocean. It seldom drops below 0F there. Although we will have single digits this week

    However you are mistaken with regard to Pennsylvania's climate. Recorded lows in our state have reached -40F.
     
  23. K Baron

    K Baron Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,032
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    North Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Thanks for correcting me, as I was only referencing Philly and the coastal reaches, and not up state Penn., my mistake.
     
  24. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Quercus gilva spring leaves. This plant seems to be at least as Z7 hardy as myrsinifolia.

    (K. Baron, PA has no "coastal reaches")
     

    Attached Files:

  25. K Baron

    K Baron Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,032
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    North Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Nice spring growth....on the Quercus.... I should have been more specific about the Eastern Seaboard been 85 km from Philly. I assumed a coastal influence based on the predominant air flow from the south...one should never assume.... minus 40F? must be a rare event? This past winter was a gardeners nightmare in SW British Columbia.....
     

Share This Page