Need to ID this plant in SE Ohio

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by Bill C., Dec 22, 2016.

  1. Bill C.

    Bill C. New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    20161222_110020.jpg 20161222_110118.jpg 20161222_110200.jpg

    Created a food plot for wildlife that used to be a hay field. Sprayed to kill all vegetation; several weeks later plowed and disked the ground. Then we had a drought, nothing was growing (from seed left behind) so I it wouldn't have done any good to have sprayed again. Planted my new seed mix (varieties not listed by manufacturer). After new plants grew -- and was quickly eaten by the deer -- this plant started showing up all over.

    Pictures taken in December, so after freezing temperatures. The deer and turkey don't seem to be interested much in this plant, so I feel certain it is leftover and not part of the food plot mix. Any help identifying it could allow me to make a decision what, if anything, to do with it.
     
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,417
    Likes Received:
    501
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Might be something in the Brassicaceae. Do the crushed leaves smell cabbagy / mustardy? If yes, the seeds it produces next summer / autumn will be good for birds.

    On general principle, spraying with herbicide is the last thing you should have done - it destroys all the native biodiversity in the ground seed bank, and native plants are in general the best ones for wildlife.
     
  3. Sundrop

    Sundrop Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    Kootenays, BC, Canada
    What kind of wildlife you want to feed? What did you spray the original vegetation with?

    I don't know much about spraying to kill plants, but have noticed from observation of what other people sometimes do, that the results they achieve may be quite opposite to their goal.
    My neighbour, for example, wanted to get rid of a very common here weed (that, by the way, is very easy to eradicate in other, nature friendly ways). He sprayed with herbicide and got rid of it (almost killed my young evergreens growing along the border, too), however instead of that one, other, much tougher, practically almost impossible to eradicate weeds started to grow on his property in great numbers, happy to be freed of competition. Now his property looks like a nursery of most invasive weeds in the area. He gave up completely now and doesn't event bother to mow his weeds before they go to seed. He is also quite disliked around here now, since the seeds from his weeds are being carried by wind and animals far and wide.



    The failure to germinate the first time was probably due to the residue of the herbicide in the soil, not necessarily to drought. Note that new seeds sprouted without problems the second time, much later after the spraying.



    Personally, I would never sow seeds of "unknowns".
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  4. Bill C.

    Bill C. New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Thank you Michael F. I will check for the odor of crushed leaves tomorrow. If I had not sprayed to kill the original vegetation, the new varieties wouldn't have stood a chance. I needed a "clean slate".

    Sundrop:
    I am mainly looking to attract/feed deer mostly, and turkey as well. We have very few hay fields, and absolutely no other crop for deer, so I am trying to give them the nutritional values they are lacking. I sprayed 41% Glyphosate. Following overwhelming advice on how to totally rid an area of vegetation to start new, you spray, plow, allow the seeds of what was growing there to germinate, then spray a second time; till, lime/fertilize, and plant 10-14 days later. As I was nearing the end of the recommended planting period (late summer), I had no option but to forego the second spraying (because of the drought, no seeds had begun to grow), so whatever seeds that came from the original vegetation were no doubt in the ground. The new seed I planted did germinate, and grow very well -- heck, the deer mowed it down to nothing -- but this broad leaf plant came later on, and is now taking over many areas. I fear if I try to just re-seed over it, the leaves will keep new seed from coming into goo dontact with the soil and won't stand a chance.

    As for the "unknown seed", please understand that this is a very reputable company, in a very competitive area, and are likely keeping proprietary info from competitors. It is Biologic's Premium Perennial, and their site states it is a blend of " large-leafed brassicas". That led me to question this plant: is it one of these large-leafed brassicas or just another 'weed'? It seemed to me that if it were part of the bought seed, the deer would be eating it as well (especially since the rest of the plot is eaten nearly to the ground), but they're not.
     
  5. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,417
    Likes Received:
    501
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    The "overwhelming advice" you were given is actually very bad advice. It is designed more around generating profits for the herbicide manufacturers, than it is for the quality of the land for wildlife. To "totally rid an area of vegetation" is as already mentioned absolutely the last thing you should do - it is suited more to elimination of wildlife, than attracting it. For good conditions for deer and turkeys, you need diverse native scrub growth (woody plants as well as herbs) to give cover as well as food, and a wide variety of native flora that will provide a good supply of food throughout the year.
     
  6. Sundrop

    Sundrop Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    Kootenays, BC, Canada

    May be your deer already ate enough of " large-leafed brassicas" (as Michael F already said your new plant belongs to that group too), are fed up with it, and are looking for other kinds of food now. Like other herbivores, deer like diet consisting of much more than a few specimens from the same family of plants. They like grasses, all kinds of “weeds” and flowers, shrub and tree leaves, many kinds of fruits, twigs and fungi. They also like cultivated plants, of course. They highly value varied diet. On my property they will go to great lengths to reach and eat a couple of leaves or flowers on the plant they like but are not able to find in the wild.
    It could be, too, they don't like the glyphosate residues in your plants. Plants absorb the residues and may contain them up to one year after the soil was treated. Some plants may contain more, other may contain less.


    I also totally agree with what Michael F has said in the his posts here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  7. vitog

    vitog Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,779
    Likes Received:
    269
    Location:
    Burnaby, Canada
    By the way, the plant looks like Winter Cress, Barbarea verna, which is a tasty edible for people as well as other animals.
     
  8. Bill C.

    Bill C. New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Well, since I have been criticized for following what appeared to be a general consensus of how to rid an area of one type of vegetation to start new varieties, I failed to see where anyone mentioned the "proper" way to do so. As for the statement the animals possibly not liking "...the glyphosate residues in your plants", this does not seem logical considering they have literally mowed down every other variety of plant that was sewn at the same time (post spraying).
    Also, it does not seem reasonable, even, for this because if the new plants absorbed any of this material, they, too would have died.

    Vitog, thank you for that answer. It does indeed look a lot like Winter Cress!
     
  9. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,417
    Likes Received:
    501
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    I fear you're missing the point - the "proper" thing to assist wildlife, is not to destroy the original vegetation in the first place. What you already have will be better than anything you try to replace it with.
     
  10. Bill C.

    Bill C. New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Considering that the ONLY real food source of volume within miles of me is hay fields, I beg to differ. Read the research manufacturers like Biologic have done into the health, NUTRITION (much better than hay mix) and how palatable the type of vegetation their products provide. I will also stress that the deer and turkeys absolutely love the blends put out. They never mowed any hay down like they have this. Many hay farmers use weed control of sorts (herbicides) anyways, so... I'd say you haven't researched these products and are simply speculating. But, you've probably heard the adage about opinions being like a-holes: everybody's got one.
     
  11. Sundrop

    Sundrop Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,057
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    Kootenays, BC, Canada
    I agree. Some opinions are more informed though, some are less. Usually the strongest opinions are those that are the least informed, likely influenced by "overwhelming advice" and based on beliefs rather than knowledge.

    Well, good luck! It looks like yours is a strong one. If it wasn't, you would probably bother to find out a little bit more how the products you use work.
    Like with everything this days, the available information is often biased and contradictory. Monsanto, company that produces glyphosate (other products: DDT, PCBs, Agent Orange and more), with reported net sales of approximately 13.5 billion U.S. dollars in 2012 , has the strongest and most audible voice and their advice can indeed be overwhelming. No one else, being it a company or an individual, has that much monetary force to push, equally successfully, their advice about Monsanto's products.
    Nonetheless, it is possible to find information that is objective, based on observation and research that is not financed by the entities that have vested interests in production and sales of the product. From that information you could learn that yes, plants can absorb herbicides, glyphosate included, from the residues in the soil.
    Here is an example that looks like may apply to your particular circumstances: Another research results show that, for example, in excessively dry years different types of herbicide carry-over may be more pronounced. The amounts absorbed would not necessarily kill plants.
    Regardless if it "seems not reasonable" or "seems not logical" to you, somewhere between life and death there is a gray zone: disease, injury, stunted growth. I could go on, quote many more articles, but I don't feel like losing too much of my time on that.

    If you did some research, you could also learn that herbicides are, to say the least, not recommended for human or animal consumption, neither directly, nor as a residue in plant's tissue. Here is one more example of potential problems: Monsanto's Roundup Linked to Fatty Liver Disease

    Deer are very picky in what they eat, always tasting new, unfamiliar to them food by eating it in a very small amount before accepting it as a permanent food source. They still have this innate ability, that most people have already lost, to distinguish between what is good for them and what is not. After eating a small amount from your field, before the injured plants died, they decided not to eat the stuff anymore.

    As for the seeds you had sowed I wonder how it could be that you started with the brassicas alone. It looks like you misunderstood the advice from the company you bought the seeds from. The company you mention says that the "large-leafed brassicas — are a delicious source of protein in advance of the winter stress period" only, and that you should "broadcast BioLogic™ Maximum’s brassica varieties directly onto the existing perennial crop". So, the company recommends similar approach as Michael F and me, that is a "blend of perennial and annual forages".
    The difference is that their advice is to use their seeds because it is how they earn their daily bread, by selling seeds, while Michal F and I, not having a monetary interest in what we recommend, advised you that you should rather keep your native vegetation for the native wildlife. This kind of approach has been worked out by Nature over centuries and millennia, and much longer, and has been proven the best.

    As for the mass killing of existing vegetation with herbicide I couldn't find any advice of this sort on the Company website, either.
    Here is the entire text from the company's webpage:
    Emphasis in bold by me.

    Anyhow, good luck with your opinions, it looks like not even the negative experience can shake them.

    That venison or wild turkey dinner will have to wait a little bit.

    Well . . . that "adage about opinions being like a-holes" . . .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    2,225
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Hey guys, assistant moderator here with this to say: this is an interesting thread. Please stop insulting each other. And don't post anything about what is or is not insulting or who started it. Just stop it and stick to the issues.
     
  13. Bill C.

    Bill C. New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Thank you, Wendy. My comment was not meant o offend, but to highlight the fact that EVERYONE has their opinion on subject matters.

    I would like to clarify one of the statements that were quoted out of context -- in the reply previous to yours.
    Sundrop: "The company you mention says that the "large-leafed brassicas — are a delicious source of protein in advance of the winter stress period" only, and that you should "broadcast BioLogic™ Maximum’s brassica varieties directly onto the existing perennial crop"."

    Since the annuals (brassicas) will only be present that first year after planting, the "existing perennial crop" is, of course, what was planted previously, and not whatever was already growing there "natively". The perennial portion will need to be seeded annually (with said brassica varieties) to maintain the same mix. If you seed over existing native vegetation the grasses and/or weeds would immediately choke out the new seed -- if they even germinated. Which, by the way, Biologic does sell what they call "Weed Reaper" herbicide for such weeds (should anyone reading this far care to know). It just sounded to me as if it were trying to make the statement say to plant over the native vegetation, which it is not. If it was not intended this way, my apologies.

    No doubt this topic could be offensive to a variety of individuals: the pollution I must be emitting from my diesel tractor; using fertilizers to enrich the soil; erosion; etc, etc, etc. I did not come here looking to debate anyone for any reason -- and certainly not to be lectured. I simply wanted assistance in identifying a plant; period.

    As a final note, I would like to address why I chose the seed I did. Forums abound with those trying to assist wildlife with better, more nutritious food, and you basically have three options to supplement whatever you have natively:
    1. Put out feed higher in protein along with mineral supplements. Very expensive and time consuming.
    2. Buy seed from your local mill/feed supplier. Mix, match, buy and plant whatever you like.
    3. Buy seed from a company that has done research to assess varieties to identify which are the best tasting and provide the most nutrients.

    Why did I decide on the latter? Number two would be cheaper, no doubt. But that seed almost always has at the very least minute amounts of weed seeds, too. The seed has not been inoculated, so to add that increases cost, time and mess. But the biggest reason I didn't was because it seems what variety works well for one person may be ignored by wildlife in other parts. So you're taking a risk on what the deer and turkey are willing to eat. Using seed that has been researched to fill the above listed needs then makes sense.

    I have seen numerous generations of deer where I live. I have seen the crops go from abundant hay fields and soybean & corn to just a couple hay fields (which do not get fertilized, so nutrients are being taken out and not put back) and nothing else. I have witnessed thinning herds, with smaller deer that appear to suffer from malnutrition. Most certainly the species will survive here, on whatever is available. But if what is available in their range is not as nutritious as they need, they will suffer. I think the fact that the smaller number of deer completely mowing this three acre plot down to nothing in one fall says it all.

    Thanks again to Vitog for the assistance!
     

Share This Page