Mtn Silverbell vs Japanese Snowbell

Discussion in 'Garden Design and Plant Suggestions' started by johnnyjumpup, Feb 16, 2008.

  1. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    I would like to have some input on the suitability of the Mtn Silverbell (Halesia monticola 'Rosea" versus the Japanese Snowbell (Styrax Japonica 'Rosea') as a small graceful tree in my garden - a substitute Japanese Cherry. The information I have is they are both hardy to zone 5, grow 8-10 feet in full sun to partial shade and bloom in spring, the Sytrax pulling ahead as it was described as a delicate, graceful tree with wide spreading branches. I have seen one or the other of these (I think) on the boulevard at the bus stop outside the Oak St entrance to the Van Dusen Gardens.

    Is either of these fragrant? I also have been intrigued by the Heptacodium miconioides (Seven Sun Flower) as a fragrant (jasmine scented) autumn blooming small tree.

    Does anyone know where I might see these three trees growing in Vancouver as I will be there the third wk in March to see the cherry blossoms. Name the street, I have a map. Also, would anyone know where I might purchase one of them?

    As always in BC, elevation is a factor. My garden is at about 2000 feet, not much wind, hot days, cool nights, lots of snow cover, rarely gets below -23C, more like -15C as the coldest. I am so ready for spring!!

    Thank you
     
  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Would think Van Duesen B. G. or UBC B.G. would be the easiest place to see all three trees, though not sure if they grow the Halesia monticola 'Rosea' form. Maybe worth a phone call first to verify and getting a map to show each trees specific location in the garden. Sorry don't have the phone numbers {should be on their websites}and the staff are helpful. Could try the librarian at Van Duesen for information and The Shop in the Garden at UBC, which may have some available. Have seen the Heptacodium miconioides labeled as H. jasminoides also. Styrax would be blooming in May. Haven't noticed any fragrance on those mentioned, not saying they aren't and haven't seen H. monticola 'Rosea'. Styrax formosana has a strong medicinal? fragrance. Don't see these trees mentioned in Gerald Straleys book "Trees of Vancouver", other than the white forms. You might find the book useful and maybe available through your local library.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2008
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The first two are trees, usually growing much taller than 10' and the third a large bush. It flowers in late summer and resembles crape myrtle or a panicle hydrangea (Hydrangea paniculata) in general aspect at this time.

    A form of the pink silverbell seen in the collections of the Washington Park Arboretum, Seattle was rather dreadful in bloom due to the ruddy or murky coloring of the flowers. However, there may be other clones on the market - be sure to view in flower before purchasing. And be mindful that although variable in this respect silverbell produces a tall tree when and where it reaches full development. A. Jacobson (North American Landscape Trees) reports that one in PA was 95' tall in 1980. In Trees of Seattle - Second Edition the same author lists one over 62' tall for the Washington Park Arboretum (as well as others of lesser stature in various locations).

    Like silverbell Styrax japonicus also produces some comparatively short and squat specimens but can sometimes be as much as 50' tall, as is one in Seattle (measured 49' high in 1990). If you want a short one look for the 'Carillon' cultivar.

    If you'd like to get a similar appearance to a Japanese cherry new kinds of dwarf flowering crabapples are in production.

    http://www.lakecountynursery.com/round table series home.htm
     
  4. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    Thank you Chimera and Ron,

    I will look for G. Straley's book. The ones on Oak St were white. I will definitely ask at Van Dusen to have a look at the trees. 90 feet gives me pause. The photos I saw on line at US Garden sites were a delicate pink, though they did mention that Pink Chimes was an improvement on Styrax Japonicus Rosea - no photo though. I have two Montmorency sour cherry trees with white blossoms so was attracted to the subtle pink.

    I have four ancient apple trees whose blossoms I love as well as the apples they provide so I was looking for a small graceful flowering tree or shrub. I have had no luck with Viburnum Maresii or the Kousa dogwood, they both stalled and eventually died.

    I have a weakness for Japanese maples and have several. I have considered cornus mas, lindera, buttercup hazel. I like the heptacodium being a shrub, fragrant and blooming late in the year. Only thing is would it be too late in the year? One reference I read said October/November. Would the shape of the bush be worth it even if it only bloomed occasionally? Would it bloom in the Kootenays?

    Then there is the problem of trying to find someplace in BC to buy any of these trees and shrubs.

    I'm open to any suggestions. I was reading elsewhere on this site about people having silverbells that never bloomed and then started to die from the leader down. Is this a common problem?

    All help much appreciated.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    'Rosea' is a synonym of 'Pink Chimes'. It has a good fragrance.

    If you can get to the UBC David C. Lam Asian Garden there is a comparatively large and old Heptacodium there. At this time of the year you would be viewing the habit and the bark.
     
  6. M. D. Vaden

    M. D. Vaden Active Member 10 Years

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    As Ron B said, much taller than 10'

    I've bought them as tall as 8' to begin with, and those were not all that big of a nursery tree.

    Just pruned a few this year, near 25' tall.

    And not all that old, either. 20 years in the ground or less.
     
  7. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    So 25 to 90 feet for silverbells. Will they take part shade? Can anyone suggest a graceful understory tree that is hardy to Zone 5? Do you think Silverbells would grow less enthusiastically in the interior as opposed to the milder, wetter west coast?

    Thanks
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The halesia would probably be easier for you than the styrax, provided you don't have alkaline soil there. The Sunset WESTERN GARDEN BOOK has climate mapping going as far north as Queen Charlotte and Prince George, if you are south of there you can look up how they have you zoned and then checking the zoning they give for these and other trees in the plant encyclopedia section.
     
  9. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    One at the Seattle arboretum was 47' tall during 2004-5. Another, in Portland was 40' in height (with an average crown spread of 50') in 1989. Its leaves are large and round, producing a coarse texture rather than the fine texture of S. japonicus.
     
  11. M. D. Vaden

    M. D. Vaden Active Member 10 Years

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    I may make a point of checking out that arboretum in the next couple of years. I want to hike in the Olympic N. F. and may just add the arboretum to the trip.
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Well, since it's one of the most important tree and shrub collections in North America that certainly seems like a worthwhile goal.
     
  13. dt-van

    dt-van Active Member 10 Years

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    There are a number of pink styrax planted as street trees on the south side of 2nd Ave east of Discovery in Vancouver. They were so lovely when in bloom last spring that I'm planning to get one to replace my own ailing Japanese cherry. Since the city sometimes offers residents the opportunity to have input in street tree selection they may have information on their website (or through the street trees department) giving the height and spread they expect. By contacting the street trees department you could probably also find out which variety these ones are, and when they were planted to get an idea of how fast they have grown.
     
  14. joecat

    joecat Active Member

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    While not as graceful as styrax, what do you think of Carpinus caroliniana (American hornbeam)?
     
  15. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    I like the little chains of nutlets. I was hoping to find a graceful, airy small 10 -12 foot flowering tree for my southwest facing courtyard that is overhung with two mature silver maples. All the ones I have found so far seem to grow to 25 to 50 feet. Stewartia pseudocamillia, cercis canadensis, silverbell, snowbell, prunus serrulata, kousa chinensis, magnolia soulageana. I have a 9 foot vine maple and a gaunt tree peony about 3.5 feet tall.
     
  16. joecat

    joecat Active Member

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    Hmm, have you gone to the nursery to see what they suggest? They probably are a lot more familiar with what choices would be available to you.

    I'm researching for small trees to add to my yard as well. I am considering magnolia sieboldii or magnolia wilsonii myself. sieboldii is the smaller of the two I think. I have no idea if they are good for your zone though.

    In "Trees for the Small Garden" by Simon Toomer, there isn't a lot that is that small and flowering. (book is going back to the library right after this!)
    There is Cornus alternifolia (up to 20ft), cornus mas (16-26ft), but these aren't really known for their flowers. Laburnum x watereri (up to 20ft) , L. alpinum 'Pendulum? Nice flowers, but probably not the most interesting the rest of the year - and not 'airy'. They also like full sun, which being on the southwest side of the tree may or may not get depending on the canopy...

    How about magnolia stellata (13ft)?

    For that size, you might want to look up flowering shrubs -- a lot can be pruned to a tree shape if that is important. Some rhododendrons will eventually get to that size.

    Also personally, I just love foliage compared to flowers (interest for 3 seasons, vs. 1) -- if that is a possibility, something with purple foliage might contrast nicely with what you have -- purple smoke bush (can get quite large!), or acer palmatum 'Dissectum', or there is a purple weeping birch that I don't know the name of.

    How was your trip to Vancouver? I wish I saw this thread earlier -- I would have recommended the name of the nursery that I like to browse at. I want to take all the trees home with me!
     
  17. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    Hi Joecat,

    Visit to Vanc was good, but cool, green grass though, always a sight for winter starved eyes. Some early cherries were out and some magnolias. Got to look at quite a few bare tree shapes on the streets and at Van Dusen. Also stopped at Sendall Gdns in Langley, 201 and 50th, still in its winter state but you could see it would be charming in a couple of weeks.

    I was shamelessly attracted to the deciduous rhododendron mucronulatum which was blooming in Van Dusen, a nice pink, and deeper pink. I think there were some blooming outside the Garden Shop at UBC. This one is hardy for me (Z5 -8). The book says full sun, but the location in Van Dusen looked liked my garden, under tall trees that is. I wish my yard looked like Van Dusen. 1-8feet by 3feet. I've never grown a rhodo before, there are some growing in my area. I took a pic of name tag so I could look it up later.

    Another nice shape was amelanchier Robin Hill and I liked the pagoda dogwood. The native amelanchier in my yard is not nearly as attractive.

    And I love Japanese maples. I have several and have not ruled out another. I am smitten with Saoshika (Young Male Deer, apparently) on the cover of Vertrees Japanese Maples.

    I have a Magnolia 'Ann', coming from Veseys, one of the Little Girl series, hardy and 8 to 10 feet. The photo looks promising. M. wilsonii and M. sieboldii are not hardy for me. They sound interesting.

    Which nursery do you like to visit? The challenge is to find the perfect tree/shrub at a price I can afford and that will fit in the car. But hey, if it were easy... I hope to get down to Vancouver again later this spring.

    A stewartia pseudocamillia leaped into my hands. 50feet and part shade. Humm.
     
  18. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Maybe a fragrant lilac or viburnum would work ?
     
  19. johnnyjumpup

    johnnyjumpup Active Member

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    Hi,

    I have lilacs and love them. Have managed to kill a V.p.t. Mariesii (looking for that layered look) and a V. Summer Snowflake, but I think it is time to revisit the viburnums. If I can find one.
     

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