Lithops (Living Stones): Growth

Discussion in 'Cacti and Succulents' started by SvenLittkowski, Nov 6, 2009.

  1. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    My baby Lithops (put into ground four or five weeks ago, the seedlings are now 2 to 3 weeks old since they came out) are tiny still, only 2 mm tall and around 3/4 millimeter wide or so. They are long, and very green. Is that appearance normal? And how fast or slow do they grow? Any photos about the grow stages of Lithops with information in which week each photo was taken? That would help me, too.

    I grow them indoors, in a covered box with reflective aluminum on the sides and two bright fluorescent lights on the top (10 cm away from them). I put the entire box bottom (box/soil is 6 inch high) for 1 minute into an inch of water, but only on a weekly base, to have the sand/stone soil soaking a little bit water. :-)

    Very big thanks again.

    Sven
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  2. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I have not grown much Lithops, but as I remember my seedlings they were ball-shaped. Growth rate depends on temperature and light, but also on the species, some are painfully slow. My fastest grew to about 6 mm diameter in 6 months, but that was my first attempt and the conditions were not optimal.
    The shape of your seedlings could be due to lack of light, but I would wait for a month and see if they still are elongated. If so I would try to increase the light.
     
  3. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    The photos show how they look now. I have two fluorescent lights above them. But I will consider to add more, if necessary.

    Thanks for the growth speed information. I would like to get some more grow speed information, from others. So I can compare and get a better idea.
     

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  4. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    They look perfectly normal to me, I thought they were far more elongated when I read your description.
    There is a non-Lithops thing close to the red swords, should that not be removed?
     
  5. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Perfectly normal? Sounds great! Thanks!

    The other plant, well, I have decided to keep it. I want to see what kind of plant it is. It came as seed with the sand, I think. It wouldn't harm the Lithops, but I wonder if it will survive the Lithops-watering conditions. I water that plant extra. So let's see...

    But how many millimeters a year is the Lithops gaining in diameter? When will they start to show off their individual features (patterns)? Who knows?
     
  6. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Growth rate varies with species. Of those I sowed in spring 2007, one species is still just 3 mm wide, another is about 12. Their patterns and colours began to show when the cotyledons were replaced with real leaves. They become more prominent as the plant grows bigger.
     
  7. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Thanks for the answer. At what point of time they did replace their cotyledons in your case, Mandarin?
     
  8. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Most of them after approximately one year. Normally they are replaced in late spring/early summer, but my seedlings have not understood that yet. Some did that in winter or summer, others in spring and autumn. Two of mine are still partially out of schedule.
     
  9. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Thanks for your answer. Good to hear that.

    Please have a look to this thread here:
    Thread Link

    I see a white-red Lithops (photo) and wonder f that appeal is normal. Do you maybe know?
     
  10. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I have not seen a Lithops seedling with that color before. Could be a mutation with no chlorophyll, if so it will die soon. Or, if it has a very small amount of chlorophyll, it could live on but grow slowly. When cactus seedlings turn red it means that they have got too much light, but I don't know how sensitive Lithops seedlings are, I have got the impression that they can take more light than cacti. As the other seedlings look well I don't think the light levels is an issue.
     
  11. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Your response makes me now even more curious about this special Lithops. It is there since weeks like this. It has not died yet, at least it looks alive still. Hopefully it will live, so I get what I always wanted: a very unique plant!

    Do you think, Mandarin, I later can try a pollination between Lithops and other close members of the Aizoaceae family (to which the Lithops genus belongs to)? Their blossoms look identical.

    I always wanted to get unique plants...
     
  12. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    I have heard about intergeneric crosses within Aizoaceae, so it is worth a try. I am not much into either hybridization or mesembs, so I cannot give any details. I am still trying to learn what kind of mesembs that I can grow well enough, how to grow them from seeds and make them flower. I am far more skilled with cacti.
     
  13. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Here now another question: I see since some days, that my Lithops become smaller and smaller, instead of bigger and bigger. But I check the soil, it is humid (the toothpick I put in indicates that to me after a few hours through the wettish wood). What do i wrong?

    Also, do you know anyone who would be able to send seeds of other Aizoaceae genuses by regular mail? I cannot get them here in Jamaica at all, in any shop. I had someone, who sent me seeds for the Drosera ("Sundew"), which I grow, too. And I sent back some Caribbean seeds. Do you know anyone? There are some Aizoaceae in which I am interested specifically.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  14. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    If they become smaller in a humid environment they are in serious trouble. If they are soft/watery it's probably rot. Otherwise the air could be too dry. But the box was covered?

    Regular mail = not by extremely expensive couriers etc? I have never looked for specialised sellers of mesemb seeds, but I know one: Cono's paradise (Germany). Most cactus nurseries sell mesemb seeds to the whole world (almost) too, for example Mesa Garden (US), Doug and Vivi Rowland (UK, closing down soon), Atomic Plant Nursery (Germany), SuccSeed (Sweden), Köhres (Germany), Haage (Germany), Uhlig (Germany), and probably many more that I have missed. Postage and method of payment may be a limiting factor, but I cannot recall any export regulations to Jamaica when it comes to seeds.
     
  15. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    The Lithops grow on soil inside a plastic box, which stands inside another plastic box which has one inch of water in it. There is a third box on top, which contains the fluorescent light. Between the two lower boxes and the upper box is a distance of 3 or four inch.

    During the nights, the two long side distances between the boxes are covered with a reflective aluminum foil to reflect the light, which runs 24/7. Only the two smaller sides of the 15x9 inch box are open. By day, often the front side is open, too. The back is always closed by that aluminum foil.

    The soil is permanently moist, a bit. I test this with a toothpick, which becomes a bit wet on one end after some hours in the soil. It don't becomes wet after minutes, it really takes hours. Each week two times, I check the water level and make sure it is around one inch. The soil in the box is around 4 inch tall, only the lower one inch is below the water level of the surrounding second box.

    Additionally, I give occasionally some water from the top by spraying or applying a few drops around each Lithops, if i have the feeling that the soil is too dry.

    I hope, I do it right, what do you think? I will buy today some tool which should hopefully indicate better the moisture of the soil.

    I really really need some advices, the Lithops mean a lot to me.

    -------------------

    In relation to the planned cross-pollination project, I thought about the following members of the Aizoaceae family:
    -Aloinopsis
    - Aptenia
    - Braunsia
    - Carpobrotus
    - Cephalophyllum
    - Conicosia
    - Delosperma
    - Drosanthemum
    - Faucaria
    - Galenia
    - Glottiphyllum
    - Jensenobotrya
    - Pleiospilos
    - Sesuvium
    - Tetragonia
    - Titanopsis
    - Trichodiadema

    That should give some very interested new breeds, if it works (and if my Lithops make it).

    I hope to find passionate growers, which agree on an exchange of pollens or seeds of those plants.
     
  16. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Some thoughts:

    1. The lights should not be on 24/7. The plants need darkness to grow well, it has to do with their metabolism. 12-16 hours of light should do.

    2. 4 inch deep soil sounds a bit too deep, it will take a long time for the roots to reach the bottom. For comparison, my Lithops seedlings are in 1 inch deep soil, and they are 2.5 years old.

    3. Always difficult to comment on something I have not seen in real life, but I suspect that air humidity is ok but maybe the soil is too dry. Roots need to "feel" the moisture from the lower parts of the soil, otherwise they tend to grow along the surface only. Too much water at the bottom promotes growth of bacteria and other unwanted things, however, and that is why I prefer a thinner soil layer + watering from the bottom combined with spraying and applying drops around the seedlings as you described. Learning how much seedlings should be watered is, in my opinion, one of the trickiest things to learn about growing cacti and succulents. Too much and they die from rot or fungi, too little and they die from thirst.
     
  17. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Hmmmm.... I will raise then the water level, I think, in the surrounding box. Thanks for the advice.
     
  18. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    Or did I misunderstand? Is the water in the lower box in direct contact with the soil? (It should not be, if there is no air in the soil it will run out of oxygen, and that is to ask for trouble.)

    It is possible to grow them in dry air too, if you supply enough water, I think you will have to try both and see what works. Growers use different methods depending on what suits their personalities and climates.
     
  19. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Yes, soil in direct touch. So, then I will remove the water in the box, and use water only from above in the future? I also switch off the lights in the night. Right so?
     
  20. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    It would not work for me, the water-logged soil would give me a lot of trouble with bacteria and fungi. The "normal" way to water from below is to let the pot suck up water for a while and then let the surplus water drain off. I cannot say for sure, but I doubt that your plants will be happy in the long run, and if they were my plants I would remove them from the water. As I understand it Lithops are not as suitable for the Fleischer method (the "baggie method", where the pots are put in hermetically sealed bags) as cacti, they need lower humidity relatively soon after germination (weeks-months).

    I no longer think the soil is too dry, I first thought that it got water only from air humidity and the occasional drops only.

    I have never mastered the art of growing from seeds in a closed environment, all my seedling trays are ventilated. I use relatively shallow trays and water mostly from below, sometimes from above if it looks too dry. I did that with the few Lithops seedlings I have grown too.

    But yes, the lights should definitely be switched off at night.
     
  21. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Thanks a lot for your advices, mandarin! I appreciate them very much. Thanks also for your good spirit.

    Well, I will finish today to remove the water from the tray. The lights are off, already, during the nights.

    On the soil, i see areas with greenish stones and also other areas with red in between stones, i think, this might be bacteria. I wonder if I can remove them somehow, if this should be necessary. I think I will make a photo this evening, and post it here for you, so you can judge if those colors indicate bacteria. Okay?

    And thanks again!
     
  22. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    The green color is almost certainly algae. I don't remember anything that turns stones red, but sure, I can take a look and see if its rings a bell.
     
  23. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Mandarin, here are the two photos: red and green algae or bacterias.
     

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  24. mandarin

    mandarin Active Member 10 Years

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    The green is algae. I don't recognize the red stuff, but I saw small patches of something similar when I inspected my seedlings this morning. Has not hurt them yet ...
     
  25. SvenLittkowski

    SvenLittkowski Active Member

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    Thanks for all your consulting. Great help, great spirit!

    I think, I will reduce the watering and see, if my living stones will like that.

    By the way, do you know anyone who would be able to exchange Lithops seeds (mixed var or whatever) with seeds I cann get here in the Caribbean? I think, I want to establish some exchange, maybe not even Lithops seeds, but many more.
     

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