Identify my orchid

Discussion in 'Orchidaceae (orchids)' started by mamarosa, Sep 20, 2009.

  1. mamarosa

    mamarosa Member

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    I purchased this orchid few days ago, and blinded by its beauty I neglected to check for the label with name and species; can you please identify it? Will terribly appreciate it.
    /Users/davidthelemaque/Pictures/Kodak Pictures/09-19-2009/S7300683.JPG
     

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  2. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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  3. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor

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  4. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    I highly doubt it is a species, but yes, it probably is a Zygopetalum. A hybrid, or probably a multi-genera hybrid. Go with Zygopetalum culture, and you should be fine.
     
  5. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    Taxonomically speaking everything is a species of some genus, whether the product of hybridization or not. Hybridization simply provides us with new species. I'm sure you mean that it is not a naturally occuring species in which case I totally agree with you. I'd also be willing to bet that plant is a product of mericloning. Though I don't see how that would greatly affect decisions concerning culture either. Historically the hybridizing of orchids has been pursued in order to create hardier species and to manipulate flower structure and color. For the basic purposes of identification here: to satisfy curiousity, for tagging, to amass other similar species, and to research general cultural requirements I'm fairly certain that the provision of the genus name "zygopetalum" is adequate... Unless, that is, the individual here is intent on manipulating specific floral traits as part of an intense selective breeding program right away... In which case I would research retailers and breeders here on the web who specialize in zygopetalums and their generic relatives. That google link I provided earlier should've provided a start in that direction. One may even run across the original breeder who no doubt works for one of the bigger orchid houses in this country He'd be able to give you the parentage as well.
     
  6. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on your comments. I have been growing orchids for 15 years, and I have never heard anyone who knows orchids, to call a man-made hybrid a species. Taxonomically speaking, species are species, and hybrids are hybrids, with the exception of natural hybrids, which are considered species.

    The plant in question could indeed be a clone, but that is irrelevant.

    This plant does not look like any Zygopetalum species I am aware of, so it could either be a Zygo hybrid, or an intergeneric cross using other related genera.

    mamarosa: do a search for Zygopetalum culture, and you will do fine. It will be nearly impossible to find out what hybrid you have, unless you can track down where it came from. If it was mass-produced via tissue culture, it won't have a name - those growers don't waste time putting tags in, when they are producing millions at a time. Is there, by chance a tag of any kind that might have a company name on it, or a web site address?
     
  7. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    http://www.floridata.com/tracks/misc/plant_names.cfm (see "hybrid species" under 'Naming Hybrids') If pushed to it I'm sure I can find other articles from more authoritative sources. Also look into any biology textbook, find the section on taxonomy and you won't find the word "hybrid" listed anywhere in the established hierarchy. Since we're obviously not dealing with a whole new genus of orchids every time two related species are crossed and the progeny in question belongs within that same genus as the parents, said progeny represent a new species within the genus. What a hobbyist or dealer habitually calls it is immaterial unless they're also on the board of HORTAX.

    My 21 years experience with orchids specifically and 26 years of general landscaping and gardening have taught me that the industry and most hobbyists (unless they're trying to show off) **chuckling here** have the habit of clepping the formalities. Many hybrids aren't even identified with complete taxonomic names within the trade... most are given a genus + 'trade name' that's a bit more catchy.... Given that tendency who would go around saying "hybrid species" when "hybrid" is shorter and gets the same point across.


    http://members.tele2.nl/henkdvr/a_bridge_to-3.htm
    The Zygopetalum Louisendorf at this link looks suspiciously like hers except the labellum on the linked pic is more red-purple than blue-purple.

    http://www.google.com/images?sa=3&q=Zygopetalum+Louisendorf&btnG=Search+images
    Some of the Zygopetalum louisendorf pics on this link look almost identical to mamarosa's...


    Multigeneric crossing is nothing new so it is possible... they've been making quadrigeneric crosses within the cattleya alliance for over a decade now... I have to wonder though - usually when I see an intergeneric cross there's a rather conspicuous change in the entire structure of the progeny and though I'm seeing some added robustness I'm not seeing the difference in overall form I'd expect from intergenerics.


    Just outta curiousity, since I'm not all that familiar with this genus, what other genera are related to Zygopetalums which would be used for intergeneric crossing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  8. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    Yep - I'm gonna have to go with Zygopetalum louisendorf. Final Answer ;-)
     
  9. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    I think we're getting into symantics here. The term 'hybrid species' is a very confusing and incorrect term. I don't think that Floridata is an authority on taxonomy, so I wouldn't take their word for that. I don't want to get into an argument about this. I hope you can agree that a hybrid is a mixture of genes of more than one species, therefore it is not a species (except of course, if it occurs naturally in the wild, then you could call it a species, even though, technically, it is not). If you can get the AOS or the RHS to tell me that hybrids are species, then I might believe you.

    As for the identification of the plant in question, you could very well be right, that it is Zygopetalum Louisendorf. When writing species names, the genus is capitalized, and the species is lowercase (usually both are italicized). With hybrids, the second name is uppercase, and not italicized. In natural hybrids, since they are taxonomixally considered species, both are italicized, the hybrid name is lowercase, and there is an 'X' between the two.
     
  10. leaf kotasek

    leaf kotasek Active Member

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    i'm confused. i thought that for two organisms to be members of the same species they had to be capable of reproducing fertile offspring together. am i mistaken? i admit i'm no expert.
     
  11. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    well you're right in a sense - actually species are usually defined by common physical characteristics that are specific to members of that species and no other. Members of the same species are also genetically similar enough to procreate. That isn't the end all though - especially in the plant world - because very often two different species that are members of the same genus can also procreate, producing progeny that possess some combination of charateristics of both parents. The progeny is an entirely new individual. It also occurs in the plant world where some species of different yet closely related genera can also be inter-bred. Our debate is actually framing the issue of where these new individuals fall within the Taxonomical Heirarchy. I've emailed Dr. Ron McHatton Ph.D at the AOS who will hopefully clear this up for us. Taxonomy is still and will probably remain an ever changing and hotly debated topic within all branches of the biological sciences.
     
  12. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    Yes, members of the same species can breed together and produce viable offspring(obviously), but a lot of times, members of many different species can also breed together - not all of these, however, do produce viable offspring.
     
  13. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    From what I understand, hybrids do not fall into the taxonomical heirarchy. Since they are simply mixtures of species (and not species themselves), how would they fit on a taxonomical chart? I think what you are talking about, is evolution, where, supposedly, a hybrid can eventually become a species. I just want to understand why you are using the word species for a plant that is a hybrid.
     
  14. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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  15. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    From what I understand, hybrids do not fall into the taxonomical heirarchy. Since they are simply mixtures of species (and not species themselves), how would they fit on a taxonomical chart?

    Every organism in existence falls into the taxonomical hierarchy... that is the function of taxonomy... without exception. Which is why hybrids must be registered in order to be legitimate and why Dr. McHatton has a job. :-)
    Further - kindly explain to me how Zygopetalum Louisendorf carries the genus name Zygopetalum and yet doesn't fall into that genus, remembering that genus is a unit of the taxonomical hierarchy.
    Further - please kindly explain why Louisendorf occurs in the species position of the this taxonomically correct binomial descriptor for this plant.
    *** All of this remembering that your contention is that hybrids "do not fall into the taxonomical heirarchy"***

    I think what you are talking about, is evolution, where, supposedly, a hybrid can eventually become a species.

    Please reread your evolutionary theory: It deals with natural selection and genetic mutation. "Survival of the fittest"..., etc: I'd be interested to see some authoritative data on how hybrids "become" a species... How exactly does that work??

    My contention is: Whether by mutation, selectivity, or hybridization (whether natural or effected by mankind) the end result is still the same: a new, genetically distinct indivdual. A new representative of the same,.. or a new (depending on parentage) genus.

    I just want to understand why you are using the word species for a plant that is a hybrid.
    Do you really?

    "I highly doubt it is a species, but yes, it probably is a Zygopetalum."
    This is a statement of contradiction not an attempt at understanding.

    "Taxonomically speaking, species are species, and hybrids are hybrids, with the exception of natural hybrids, which are considered species."
    Yet another statement of contradiction and absense of attempt at understanding. Couple that with some good ole rote regurgitation... where's the logic progression indicating some validation of the absolute you just stated? The " If, Thens" and the "Because, Therefores"? Also,... do you remember saying something about hybrids "not falling into the taxonomical hierarchy"? If that's the case then logically wouldn't "Taxonomically speaking,... hybrids are hybrids" be an invalid statement? If not please validate that for me as well.

    "I think we're getting into symantics here."
    LoL Imagine that Taxonomy turning into an argument over words, oh wait, there's a difference between an arguement and a contradiction.

    "The term 'hybrid species' is a very confusing and incorrect term. I don't think that Floridata is an authority on taxonomy, so I wouldn't take their word for that. I don't want to get into an argument about this."
    - "Confusing" doesn't equal incorrect - Can you qualify that label of incorrect for us?
    - "I don't think Floridata is an authority..."? now you're an authority on authorities?
    :- ) Luckily we're still firmly entrenched in contradiction here...


    I've explained myself logically twice (supporting details, the whole nine) to the reception of flat contradiction to no avail at which point you say: "I just want to understand why you are using the word species for a plant that is a hybrid." While I really do find that amusing I do have better things to do with my time.

    I'll be posting a transcript of my email and the good phd's response... as soon as I receive it... If anyone else would like me to qualify or provide further support, detail, or clarification to any of my prior statments I'll be happy to, just let me know. If you, like me, are tired of Ghengis Khan flogging a dead horse then worry not, this will be the last direct or indirect response kevin receives from me on any channel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2010
  16. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    mamarosa, is it fragrant ?
     
  17. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    chimera - typically, Zygopetalums are fragrant.

    oberfeldwebel - I think this is a discussion for a different forum. If we keep going, an admin will probably step in. There is obvioulsy a communication problem here, and we could be talking abou completely different things and not even know it. I look forward to hearing what this PhD person has to say. I would be very interested to know how and when hybrids became classified as species under the taxonomical heirarchy. I have become much more confused about this than I was in the beginning. You have misunderstood some of what I have said, and I'm sure I have done the same of you. If, in fact, you are correct, then I have to wonder why I have never heard, or read from any knowledgeable orchid person, that man-made hybrids are considered species. Seems very odd.
     
  18. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    I can also forward you the email if you'd like. But that means you'll have to provide your email address.

    Please accept my apology for taking so long to get back to you. There
    are actually two sets of rules that deal with botanical nomenclature;
    those for naturally ocurring taxa (species and natural hybrids) and
    those for horticultural or manmade hybrids. In the botanical
    nomenclatural system, hybrids do fit in at the level of species and
    there are no designations below species rank for these natural hybrids.
    For instance, Guarianthe x guatemalensis (formerly Cattleya
    guatemalensis) is a natural hybrid between Gur. skinneri and Gur.
    aurantiaca. The name is printed in all lower case, italics and the
    multiplication sign (technically a multiplication sign not a lower case
    x) preceeds the name. The rules are not specific as to whether there
    is a space between the multiplication sign or not so you see
    xguatemalensis and x guatemalensis used interchangeably. The natural
    hybrid name is valid only for plants collected from the wild and those
    raised from seed only if the two parents are themselves collected
    natural hybrids or raised from collected parents. In other words, Gur.
    (x guatemalensis X x guatemalensis) = Gur. x guatemalensis but Gur.
    (skinneri x aurantiaca) made in someones greenhouse is not. In that
    case, it is a horticultural hybrid and it's name is controlled by the
    rules for manmade hybrids.


    The rules for manmade hybrids register only the horticultural variant
    (cultivar name) for all plants except orchids. In the botanical sense,
    this would put these names at a level below botanical variety or forma
    as it refers to a single individual. For instance, in Camellias the
    plant known in horticulture as Camellia Nuccio's Perfection is a single
    individual and all plants that carry that name are vegetative
    propagations of that single individual; either mericlones or grafted
    plants from scions or cuttings, not from seed. In orchids, the grex
    name is registered giving us the ability to trace lineage. It also
    gives us the opportunity to name individual cultivars to distinguish
    them from the remainder of the grex. In your example, Louisendorf is
    the grex name (in horticulture, the multiplication sign is usually
    dropped since it's obvious we are talking about hybrids). The name is
    not written in italics and the first letter is always uppercase (in
    species the name is never capitalized). For your example, by the way,
    the genus is also a hybrid; Zygosepalum x Zygopetalum called x Zygolum
    (or much more commonly Zygolum without the multiplication sign) so it
    would be x Zygolum Louisendorf. Zygolum Louisendorf 'Trader's Point',
    AM/AOS is a single individual from that grex. The AM/AOS means it has
    been given an Award of Merit from the American Orchid Society.


    To recap, there are two systems:

    1. Naturally occurring taxa (species, etc.)

    family, genus, subgenus, species (or natural hybrid), subspecies,
    variety, forma - not all designations are used. For instance, there
    may not be a subgenus.
    Examples: Orchidaceae, Paphiopedilum, subgenus Brachypetalum, niveum
    or Orchidaceae, Cattleya, bicolor, subspecies grossii

    2. Manmade orchid hybrids

    family, hybrid genus, hybrid grex, cultivar name

    Examples would be Orchidaceae, x Zygolum, Louisendorf, Trader's Point
    or Orchidaceaea, Cattleya, Joseph Hampton.

    I hope this helps.

    Regards,

    Ron McHatton
    American Orchid Society
    Director of Education
    Chief Operating Officer
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  19. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    Well, you sure are going out of your way to try to prove me wrong. Thank you for posting this letter. Unfortunately, it seems that you have just proved yourself wrong, at least as far as I understand what you are trying to say. I don't think we are understanding each other. The main point that I was trying to get across, and have not succeeded at, is to explain how a naturally occurring species is different from a man-made hybrid, and thus, cannot and does not, fall under the same classification. Your quote:
    simply isn't true. Species cannot be created by man. Hybrids can, but are not species, since they are a mixture of more than one species. Species and hybrids are different, and to use one to describe the other is confusing. Mr. Ron McHatton has stated what I have been trying to say:
    Hybrids are classified separately from species.
    I'm sorry if I was not clear, but what Mr. McHatton has said, is exactly the point I was trying to get across.

    I wouldn't mind getting a copy of the e-mail - you can send it to me through the e-mail function on the forum if you like.

    I hope this clears things up a bit, and I hope we can drop this 'discussion'.
     
  20. oberfeldwebel

    oberfeldwebel Active Member

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    So there you have it: The name for your little tag, mamarosa, is "x Zygolum Louisendorf" since we're not sure whether or not it's a 'Trader's Point' cultivar...
     
  21. DirOCRC

    DirOCRC Member

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    Location:
    Changchun China
    Genus: Galeottia
    Group: Zygos, Lycastes, Stanhopeas
    Subfamily: Epidendroideae
    Tribe: Maxillarieae
    Subtribe: Zygopetalinae
    Abbr: Z

    As for its correct common name I would simply look up Zygopetalum on the internet.
     

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