Identification: Horizontal spreading tree with white petal and bronze-green leaves(1)

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by Joseph Lin, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    I found two horizontal spreading trees with 5 white petals and bronze-green leaves at NE corner of Montgomery Park at West 43 Ave & Oak Street, Vancouver.

    Located in front of a house at 1033 West 43rd Ave, Vancouver, Google map: Google Maps

    Basic info: 3 meter high and 6 meter wide; bronze-green leaves; flowers: pale pink open flat 4.0 cm across, with 5 white round petals with notch, rare with one extra staminode, in corymbs of 4~6 flowers, peduncle 2 cm and pedicel 2 cm; no hair, stained red at flower base before wither, short stigma, narrow purple calyx-tube, narrow sepal
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  2. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Horizontal spreading tree with white petal and bronze-green leaves(2)
     
  3. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Horizontal spreading tree with white petal and bronze-green leaves(3)
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Joseph, of the four trees there, I see in the Oakridge thread that you posted the two taller ones as 'Choshu-hizakura', which I thought was pretty convincing when I went to see them after you phoned me. I don't see any difference among the four trees, except for the shape.
     
  5. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Good scouting, Joseph! I visited the site this morning on my way to work. I agree that the taller ones are 'Choshu-hizakura', but the horizontal ones are quite different. The flowers are smaller and lighter in colour, with fewer staminodes, shorter pistils and less elaborated floral bracts. The leaf margins are more significantly serrated and more obviously hair-tipped. I've been looking but cannot find a good match.
     
  6. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Can they be Sendai-shidare? But they have few staminodes.
     
  7. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    I think the flowers are smaller and too pink and the sepals are not as linear as they are in 'Sendai-shidare', but the crown shape is certainly similar.
     
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  8. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I'm not convinced yet, but it was practically dark when I first saw them. I've gone back now, and am adding some comparison photos.

    These are from Susanna's tree, the only 'Choshu-hizakura' we previously knew. In the fourth photo, I was trying to make the point that some of the branches are horizontal, and some are upright. Even in the out-of-focus third photo, you can see a strongly horizontal branch at the lower right.
    20160331_27thAsh_Choshu-hizakura_Cutler_161001.jpg 20160331_27thAsh_Choshu-hizakura_Cutler_161032.jpg 20160331_27thAsh_Choshu-hizakura_Cutler_160901.jpg 20160331_27thAsh_Choshu-hizakura_Cutler_161122.jpg

    These are the four trees at Montgomery Park. I've numbered them 1, 2, 3 and 4.
    20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-Trees1-2-3-4_Cutler_162525.jpg

    Here is Tree 1, a wide tree and Tree 2, a tall tree. In this photo, the flower stems of the wide tree look much shorter, thicker and more green than those of the tall tree (the one assumed to be like Susanna's, which I think looks intermediate to these two). But see the photo from tall tree 4, which I think has stems more similar to the wide tree 1 in this area of the tree. The second photo shows Tree 1, the wide tree, with the limb cut off that might have made it a tall tree. I'm not at all convinced that the wide trees are inherently short wide trees. There are a lot of dead areas on tree 4, and tree 2 looks like it could easily end up dying at the top and being pruned to look like trees 1 and 3.
    20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-trees1-2_Cutler_163259.jpg 20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-Treee1_Cutler_164101.jpg

    In each photo below are trees 2 and 3, tall tree and a wide tree
    20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-Trees2-3_Cutler_163349.jpg 20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-Trees2-3_Cutler_163505.jpg

    This is tree 4, a tall tree.
    20160331_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Choshu-hizakura-Tree4_Cutler_163841.jpg

    We know 'Choshu-hizakura' fade from pink to white, so it doesn't seem much of an issue for me that the ones with the more pink flowers have leaves more bronze. The wide trees might just be a few days ahead. We certainly see lots of groups of the same cultivar where some trees in the group are days ahead of the others. And we see trying to compare 'Somei-yoshino' to 'Akebono' that aging 'Akebono' flowers are as white as 'Somei-yoshino' and get to be around the same size.
    Fewer staminodes - some 'Akebono' trees have them on every 10th flower and others on every 100th, some flowers have one, some trees have lots of flowers with several.

    I have not addressed these points at all, as I don't think I captured anything that demonstrates them or refutes them.
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Also, unpruned 'Sendai-shidare' branches would hit the ground. Those have very strongly weeping, long weeping branches. Also, the contorted branching of 'Sendai-shidare' seems to be characteristic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 1.
    Flower size

    Wide trees - the wide trees had many flowers that were smaller than shown here. But they all had some flowers that were 4cm in diameter.
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Size_Cutler_P1220018.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-Size_Cutler_P1220117.JPG

    Tall trees - the tall trees had a few flowers that seems to be 4.5cm, most at 4cm, and generally, no flowers as small as there were on the wide trees.
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-Size_Cutler_P1220077.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tal-Size_Cutler_P1220154.JPG
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 2.
    Bud scales

    Wide trees - the bud scale size seemed to vary a lot. It was harder to photograph the ones that were smaller and more congested, which I think I remember being more on the wider trees.
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-BudScaleSize_Cutler_P1220060.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-BudScaleSize_Cutler_P1220108.JPG

    Tall trees
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-BudScaleSize_Cutler_P1220068.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tall-BudScaleSize_Cutler_P1220149.JPG
     
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 3.
    Bracts

    Wide trees - I'm not at all sure I captured what Douglas was noticing.
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Bracts-Pistil_Cutler_P1220023.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-BudScaleSize_Cutler_P1220108.JPG

    Tall trees
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-Bracts_Cutler_P1220087.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tall-LeavesBracteoles_Cutler_P1220171.JPG
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 4.
    Leaves

    Wide trees
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Leaves_Cutler_P1220022.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Leaves_Cutler_P1220029.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Leaves_Cutler_P1220032.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-Leaves_Cutler_P1220120.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-LeavesPistils_Cutler_P1220124.JPG

    Tall trees - these leaves were not as easily accessible. I owe thanks to the caretaker Jacue who twice got out his ladder and took a cutting for me (so tree 4 photos were taken on his car).
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-Leaves_Cutler_P1220083.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-Leaves_Cutler_P1220086.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-LeavesPistil_Cutler_P1220088.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tal-Leaves_Cutler_P1220153.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  14. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 5.
    Pistil length

    Wide trees - this is the only aspect that looked pretty different to me, with the pistil always longer than the stamens on the tall trees but varying in length on the wide trees. Our book shows 'Choshu-hizakura' pistils shorter than the stamens (so, matching the wide trees). The pistils on the wide trees were also slighter than on the tall trees. I already said I thought the wide trees have older flowers, and I wonder if that makes a difference.

    Wide trees
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Pistil_Cutler_P1220198.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-BudScaleSizePistilLeaves_Cutler_P1220118.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide-Pistil_Cutler_P1220174.JPG

    Tall trees
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-Pistil_Cutler_P1220183.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tal-Pistil_Cutler_P1220169.JPG
     
  15. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I am doing six postings comparing various aspects of the tall trees vs. the short wide trees. This is posting 6.
    Miscellaneous

    Extra petals

    Wide tree
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-Staminode_Cutler_P1220191.JPG

    Tall tree
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall-PetaloidsPistils_Cutler_P1220078.JPG



    The trees
    Tree1 and Tree3 are the wide ones
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide_Cutler_P1220045.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree3Wide_Cutler_P1220093.JPG
    Missing limbs on wide tree - this tree seemed to be missing three large limbs
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree1Wide-MissingLimbs_Cutler_P1220046.JPG

    Tree2 and Tree4 are the tall ones
    20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree2Tall_Cutler_P1220067.JPG 20160401_MontgomeryPark-43rdOak_Tree4Tall_Cutler_P1220127.JPG
     
  16. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member

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    Are these Choshu-hizakura cherry trees too?

    Two short cherry trees with lighter Choshu-hizakura flowers are blooming now.

    But these two short trees have horizontal branches with more flower balls at the end of the thin branches.

    Douglas, Wendy or anyone, this will be the prime time to visit and identify them this year!!

    They are located at the NE corner of Montgomery Park in front of a house at 1033 West 43rd Ave, Vancouver.
     

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  17. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    In the original thread,
    Identification: - Choshu-hizakura - pink single with extra petals, was Please help to identify
    where we identified Susanna's tree, the first of these we found, Mariko Izaki commented:
    So one possibility could be that the short ones are Mursaki-zakura (would be 'Murasaki-zakura') and the tall ones, that bloom later, are the 'Choshu-hizakura' (Douglas concurred on the ID of the taller ones).
    Another similar tree in the running in the first thread was 'Kenrokuen-kumagai'.
     
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Data from 2017. These photos are all from Shirley Willard, from April 22 unless indicated. Last year I compared various aspect of the trees at Montgomery Park. This time around, I am taking Douglas Justice’s statement in posting #5 and comparing the characteristics he mentioned with Susanna’s tree and each of the Montgomery Park trees, which are named by their number, I thought I used the same numbering system I used last year for Montgomery Park, but as I reread that, that doesn't seem to be the case. This year, trees 1 and 4 are the tall ones, presumed to be ‘Choshu-hizakura’; 2 and 3 are the shorter ones, supposedly the ones in question.

    Here are Susanna's tree (W27th and Ash) and the Montgomery Park trees, numbered 4,3,2,1 in this photo.
    20170418 W27thEAsh Choshu-sakura Willard_0757.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 4321Choshu-hizakura Willard_0199.JPG

    Flowers – not measured. This year we looked for more or fewer staminodes.

    Susanna’s, April 18 and April 22
    20170418  W27thEAsh Choshu-sakura Willard_1187.JPG 20170422 W27thAsh Choshu-hizakura Willard_1476.JPG

    Tree 1 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 1Choshu-hizakura Willard_1563.JPG

    Tree 4 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 4Choshu-hizakura Willard_1549.JPG

    Tree 2 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1585.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1586.JPG

    Tree 3 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1607 2.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1613.JPG
     
  19. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    2017 data continued.
    Here are pistils

    Susanna’s
    20170422 W27thAsh Choshu-hizakura Willard_1476.JPG 20170422 W27thAsh Choshu-hizakura Willard_1478.JPG

    Tree 1 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 1Choshu-hizakura Willard_1569.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 1Choshu-hizakura Willard_1572.JPG

    Tree 4 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 4Choshu-hizakura Willard_1557.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 4Choshu-zakura Willard_1560.JPG

    Tree 2 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1595.JPG

    Tree 3 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1620.JPG
     
  20. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    2017 data:
    Floral bracts

    Susanna’s
    20170422 W27thAsh Choshu-zakura Willard_1481.JPG

    Tree 1 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 1Choshu-hizakura Willard_1578.JPG

    Tree 4 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 4Choshu-hizakura Willard_1554.JPG

    Tree 2 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1590.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1591.JPG

    Tree 3 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1617.JPG
     
  21. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    2017 data:
    Leaf margins

    Susanna’s
    20170422 W27thAsh Choshu-hizakura Willard_1487.JPG

    Tree 1 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 1Choshu-zakura Willard_1575.JPG

    Tree 4 (tall tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 4Choshu-zakura Willard_1559.JPG

    Tree 2 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1601.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 2Choshu-hizakura Willard_1604.JPG

    Tree 3 (short tree)
    20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1624.JPG 20170422 MontgomeryPk 3Choshu-hizakura Willard_1625.JPG
     

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