Etrog Questions

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by Junglekeeper, Oct 25, 2005.

  1. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    These information can be retrieve through responsas from 1835-1892 about the big dilemma of etrogey Corfu ( Greece), it will be extremely long, laborious and complex and of no interest of other reader ( as I was already asked not to elaborate on anthropology and cultural subjects in this forum) ...

    but to be short: There are no etrog that has a pedigree of nongrafted from immemorial times only from a few generations.( of course, only one responsa made the assumption
    ( taharat hamikva yochiach : zeria) that a branch of a grafted is itself grafted...and every one after him condemn the process but before him none were making the 2nd generation after transplanting, to be considered as a grafted only when the etrog branch was on the scion of the other tree ( orangia mare, troyer, poncirus trifolia, dragon ,....limonish, portugal, moransta)-ref: limud zechut R. Eliazar Alpandary.

    REF: most of them are in Rabbinical Hebrew ( not modern and a lot of abbreviations), -the Ferrari (1356) are in Latin, and the statement of sale and buy from Greece are in low-German in hebrew transliteration ( jargon).
    -peher hador ch' beit, igeret 131.
    -oraat heter 1875
    -divrey chachamim 1891
    -divrey miluyim
    -orot chaim
    -chelkat yohav
    -beit meir
    -zichron melech
    -yalkut P"HH Yuda Noach & A A Barnow
    -milchemet H' b'amalek t"rnb on the Corfu Holocaust.
    -nin neeman
    -mizimerat haaretz

    -Ferrari Hesperides 1656.
    -life of L. Moses Montefiore ( biography).
    the list is much longer but if you go through this one you'll be all right
     
  2. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by de bon chemin
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aron


    I'm from New york. I was researching the ritual laws of esrog and came across this thing of esrogim from Cuba. i had never heard of Cuban esrogim and was fascinated to see that you knew about it. i have spoken to many people and very few had even heard about them. and nobody had any real information about them until i read your post from a year ago. i am only a little bit interested in grafted esrogim but very interested in those from Cuba. i do not have any of the books you mention. is there anything in English. i do read Hebrew but this type of stuff is easier for me in English.

    good weekend
    Aaron


    Do you have a copy of the Citrus Industry Volume I. If not here is a link to chapters in Volumes I, II and V. Check out chapter 3 and 4 in Volume I for information about Ethrog.

    The rest it's very easy where you had a Jewish communauty and the weather was for it ....you had etrogim

    check this, it will help
    http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/

    as for the purpose of your interest....I didn't catch it
    .
    The message seems personal but I think that it would be interesting for the forum...you may delete the personal stuff and post these messages in the thread for everyone to see, of course to your discretion as it is your choice to do so.

    Eric De Bon Chemin

    i don't mind putting on the forum, i just don't know how. if you want to put it, it is fine with me.
    Aaron
     
  3. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    dear aaron.
    here is a link that mention also the citron of cuba, as to be very similar to the one of Diamante which is generaly (i dont take responsibility for that) called "yaneve".
    the address is
    wishing you all the best,
    esrog re
     
  4. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    Dear Aaron, rLS

    Indeed, this link calls the Cuban Citron: Earle...as we marked it as the Cuban Shaddok.

    Is the Sicilian sweet, as the Yanaver/Diamante/Calabro is bitter/amaretto (agrume)?
    and the Shaddok is .....
    I never taste the Sicilian or the Shaddok, if someone had, let us know.

    Google these:

    Le cédrat méditerranéen et le cédrat de Corse. de part l'Auteur : R. Huet
    (presented as Hybrid as well a lot others too...)

    CHAPTER 4
    Horticultural Varieties of Citrus
    BY ROBERT WILLARD HODGSON

    Bonne fin de journee et de semaine,

    Eric-Jehu de Bon Chemin
     
  5. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    In the first page trancelated in english. maybe do you know what this means.
    "The citron decorates the Arab gardens. A variety meets only in the gardens of Damas: the Kabaab. In Morocco, one also finds varieties typical like Me Guergueb of Berkane."
     
  6. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    "Sweet Citron Varieties.—The only widely-grown sweet citron variety is the Corsican, which is described below. The literature does not disclose other sweet-fruited varieties of general distribution. That there are some varieties of local importance is indicated by Chapot (1950b and 1962a), who described two of Moroccan origin: Assads and M'Guergueb."
     
  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Now that my interest has been peaked
    in this thread I am wondering where
    some of you are going with this topic.
    I sense some areas of noncommittal,
    whether it is due to religious or faith
    reasons or for other factors I do not
    know about, yet for me to open up with
    what I have learned along the way may
    require some intentions stated for me
    to proceed further than I will here in
    this note. The inherent problem is that
    several of us are outsiders to the secular
    aspects of this fruit. I am not wanting to
    offend anyone in regards to this subject
    and probably will unintentionally, so my
    hands are tied with this subject matter
    until someone speaks out and tells what
    they really want to know here.

    I will say this now that there are Etrogs
    in the greater Los Angeles vicinity that
    are and have been on their own roots for
    several years, since the early to mid 50's
    that I know of and probably were around
    in the area before then. If you want to go
    into more depth into how those trees came
    into the Los Angeles and nearby areas and
    when, then you my want to contact people
    in the Santa Ana area which is in Orange
    County.

    The Corsica probably came to California
    through Florida. I believe the Assad or a
    form close to it came into the Southern
    California region from people soon after
    WWII.

    Perhaps a Temple or two can help you guys
    further than I will and can lend a helping hand
    on the Sweet Citron that has been in the Los
    Angeles and nearby areas in the past that may
    have come in years ago through Israel..

    Jim
     
  8. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    To Mr. Shepp

    Is the Etrog a Citrus Medica-Mallus Meddei between others or a trackable fruit with its own genetics, morpho. and taxo. differentiable of other citrus medica??
    Or I think that the question, cogito nunc sum ...
    As for the direction of the thread, that the way the cookie crumbles, let enjoy it.
    Have a vonderful week end and a happy one.
     
  9. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    To all who want to understand the discussions about esrog.
    It is to determine which kind of citron (citrus medica) is more likely to be considered kosher by Jews.
    The main discussed issue was that the esrog (etrog/ethrog etc. depends on the way of pronouncement in Hebrew which varies by origins of the writers) should be authentic, and not a hybrid with some other fruit which cannot be considered as an esrog.
    The believe in which esrog is more authentic or less, is also variable, and depends also in origin of what the people over there believed about or had the opportunity to get that kind of esrogim.
    By the time going many questions arisen:
    1) Is the Yemenite more authentic because it got no pulp, and the others should be considered as hybrids with pulpy and juicy fruits like the lemon?
    2) Are the Yemenite and Moroccan more authentic because of there is no grafting practiced there for the esrog, and maybe ban the Diamante because grafting is widely practiced over there for years (centuries?) and even the non-grafted ones are questioned for being descendents of hybrids, which may not be considerd better then their parents (except for a few opinions like the beth Efraim, de bon chemin etc.)?
    3) Or maybe should we say that because the Diamante was used for centuries (a fact that could be discussed, it is built on a theory that it was called "yanove - genoa" because of distribution by there) it should be the only one considered authentic, not the Yemenite which is quite different by being pulpless, and not the Moroccan by being partially seedless?
    4) Looking for the reasons why and how the Yemenite got pulpless (if it wasn't the authentic one) and how the Moroccan got partially seedless, and if something could be done to correct them without out cross pollination, which would make them worse.
    5) Investigating the effects of grafting and breeding and how they could affect the progeny and hybridization.
    6) Looking for linkage. Let's ask if the Greek citron growing in Naxos is it native to Greece? Or should we rather look for one in Crete, Parga or Corfu?
    7) From were are the citron growing today in Israel originating. Are some of them from Corfu? Yes. Which are they? Which are endemic to Israel? Which were never grafted?
    8) And so on – is the Yemenite native to India? The Moroccan to Corsica? No problem. But was grafting practiced in that regions at that times?
    For some those questions are very interesting, especially for religious Jews. But the scientific experts are very helpful in such discussions and could help them getting into planting citrons under rabbinical supervision.
    Thanks for all joining the discussions and sharing their knowledge.
    All the best.
    Esrog Research
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Even descendant plants that have been
    propagated for many years can show us
    physical characteristics that may or can
    differ from the parent plant grown in the
    same area. We can also see elements of
    the plants being different by where they
    are grown such as bring in a plant from
    Israel and grow it here in the San Joaquin
    Valley and we might see some slight
    changes in the plant over time in the
    plant grown here. Such as a difference
    in rind color that may not be seen in
    Israel. Rind color can be impacted by
    coolness at or during the time or ripening
    as an example. We can also influence
    the amount of seeds a fruit will have by
    our growing culture on several of the
    Citrus. One way is to limit the activity
    of honeybee pollination for some Citrus
    (some Mandarins for example will produce
    more seed per segment if the trees were
    bee pollinated), another is leave some
    plants in a solitary setting whereby no
    other foreign pollen can contaminate the
    host tree or in some cases have all of the
    trees cross pollinated by another like tree
    (tree that is the same).

    The probability that Etrogs that came from
    Israel that were brought into the US had
    not been subjected to foreign pollen from
    another Citrus tree is more likely to be close
    to nill in a landscape, although the possibility
    exists that some backyard trees may not
    have been grown anywhere near another
    form of Citrus such as a Lemon or an Orange.
    Should an Etrog have been grown near or
    close by to another Citrus form tree, then
    to have a pure line Etrog for duplication
    purposes would force the seed to have to
    be discarded. Rooting cuttings, layering
    or air layering or today through cellular
    propagation such as tissue culture of the
    parent plant would be the only way to
    ensure "pureness" in the plant. Even
    then the parent plant can be impacted
    by where it is grown or has been grown
    for a number of years that may show
    some changes we can see in the progeny.
    I believe the Diamante has two selected
    forms that came about from the original
    plant that were selected out and named
    here in California and it is likely that both
    forms arose from seed.

    I also believe that over time an Etrog that
    was grown in Haifa may not look quite the
    same as the same tree might grown in Tel
    Aviv, even if both plants came from the same
    source in the Holy Land. I've seen it happen
    in a few other plants and a lot of the time it
    is due to the trees culture, how it was grown
    differently from the other tree. That is the
    basis why a plant grown in Holland may not
    look the same as the same exact plant is
    when grown here or a Maple grown on its
    own roots for many years in Japan can look
    different than the same Maple grown for many
    years here on its own roots can look like.

    I believe the Etrog and Esrog to be different
    from each other. I also feel these two plants
    are Citrons but can be separated from most
    of the Citrons due to the molded ribbing we
    can see and feel on the outside of the fruit.
    I believe the Diamante can in some cases
    also can have the appearance of the smoothed
    over ribs much like an Esrog but the ribs are
    not molded which yields an ever so slight feel
    of the ribbing being present but they are not
    as distinct as the Esrog.

    I agree that the Etrog has less albedo inside
    the fruit than most Citrons. Much like how I
    can tell an old Shaddock which I learned to be
    Citrus maxima and was called a Pomelo
    from the Citrus grandis which is now
    called a Pummelo. The old Pomelo plant may
    have been a hybrid but we do not know for
    sure whereas the Pummelos are all considered
    hybrids in some way. Again for the latter we
    are not sure but I am going by a consensus
    opinion of the Pummelos.

    The rabbinical philosophy is highly important
    for the Etrog as we need to know what they
    base their reasoning on to give a fruit or tree
    kosher status other than the presence of the
    molded ribs, the uniformity of rind color without
    any discoloration, the shape of the nipple on the
    apical end in some cases and whether the fruit
    came from a tree on its own roots. Surely through
    time these plants have changed a little and I
    believe that has been taken into account. It will
    be rather tough now to source back a plant or a
    line of plants and determine it was the original
    source plant when we factor in that the plants
    that came into Israel may have come from
    somewhere else such as Palestine and Persia.
    Therein is the part of the problem as through
    trade these plants may have originated in
    Corsica or Italy and we just have no way of
    knowing. Personally, I would not worry too
    much about that. Link and source the plants
    back to Israel and the Holy Land and you will
    have your basis to think of the Etrog as being
    in the Citron family but may also have been
    its own nature caused hybrid through a series
    of gene mutations which allows for the Etrog
    to be different in rind color, the amount of
    albedo inside the fruit and the size, shape of
    the fruit and the molded ribbing that gives the
    Etrog different physical characteristics than the
    other known Citrons at the present time. That
    is not to say that the Diamante cannot have
    come from an Etrog as we do not know much
    about these plants and their origins as much
    of the basis the intellectual community go on
    is where the tree was found, which does not
    mean that the tree was endemic to that particular
    location or region.

    Jim
     
  11. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    Thank you Mr. Shep.
    The rabbinical position is based more or less as to get evidence for pure, non-grafted, and non-hybridized lines.
    An ancient rabbinical opinion (about 300 years ago) which was always considered and discussed, was to use differentials (like those described in this forum by De Bon Chemin) to determine if a citron (which is called in Hebrew: Esrog/Etrog/Ethrog) was grafted or not. I actually found a hybrid growing in Greece which has all of those differentials, also a picture from Vilkamer where they are also found. The last is said to be growing in Genoa, Italy where the citrons for religious use were grown in that time, and for which this differentials were most probably given to ensure that the Jewish costumer gets a real Esrog/Citron and not a hybrid.
    The main question is now how those changes occurred, since grafting is now I think proven not to change the progeny? A fact which is accepted also by many rabbinical authorities.
    I raised an opinion that grafting in the ancient was of been practiced not for cold hardiness or resistance purposes, since the grafting methods and recommended rootstock were not established in that time, nor was the effect of pollination, out-cross-pollination and so on. Also I would say, and I have rabbinical prove for this, that in that time it wasn't done on a commercial matter, only in home gardens as for sport and adventure.
    For all that reasons, and to answer the above and some more questions I would assume that grafting was than practiced by leaving the rootstock branches on the tree, in that way it wasn't practical for commercial use, and it resulted in changes to the progeny.
    De Bon Chemin seems to have studied very well the differentials between the citron and the lemon, and his work which will be appreciated by us, will lead to the establishment of a pure line cultivar, which will with rabbinical guidance, be accepted by the Jewish publicum. He will be able to name his cultivar however he wishes.
    As I wrote, people can call their plantations as they wish, since there is no known methods to enforce a name for a fruit. However, if one wants to sell them for Jewish people, he most get a "Hechsher"- certification from a qualified rabbi. In fact the most popular kosher citrons are not called with the name "esrog" or similar in Latin.
    Also, it makes no difference for the citron – in rabbinical point of view – if it originates from Israel or not. In fact many orthodox Jews refrain from using any citron from Israel, since grafting and breeding were practiced there in large.
    The main discussion on the citrons are if they were traditionally used in some place, to insure an opinion from late rabbinical sources that it is to be called citron or esrog, and not a hybrid. The discussions about linkage are for the same purposes.
    The main traditional lines are those discussed in the latest letter of mine, and the questions among them are also, I think, clear. However those questions which are not only concerning me, but the entire Jewish community as well, might get some answers with the help of a qualified scientist like you. I will therefore provide you any information required in the way to get answers on those questions.
    Thank You
    Esrog Research
     
  12. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    Yes, couldn't be exposed better.
    Thank you.
     
  13. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Etrogs were around in some locales
    in the greater Los Angeles area before
    the 50's and all the trees that I once
    knew of, by the select individuals that
    had them, were on their own roots.

    Even all through the 50's virtually all
    Citrus sold and grown in California
    came about from rooted cuttings.
    There were some trials in which a
    Lemon was budded onto a Citrange
    and then rooted cuttings were made
    from wood from that put together
    plant and later grown on and sold.
    This process is how some of the
    first semi-dwarf forms came about
    for resale to commercial growers
    and to home gardeners. The
    dilemma at that time was that
    the two parent put together plants
    did not live long but the budded
    plant served as the prototype plant
    for nurseries to sell rooted cuttings
    to people that had some dwarfing
    characteristics, that came about
    from the Citrange rootstock parent.

    Also, this union incorporated into
    the Lemons genome more cold
    resistance, thus our Lemon in
    its first year of transplanting from
    the Los Angeles area to the San
    Joaquin Valley was able to endure
    temperatures down to 6 degrees
    when all other Meyer Lemons
    on their own roots probably would
    have perished. To make comment
    that the “recessive” rootstock does
    not and cannot affect the genetic
    makeup of the more dominant
    scion plant is not true. About one
    out of 25 seedlings raised from
    fruit from our Meyer Lemon tree
    on its own roots will yield seedling
    progeny with trifoliate leaves.

    The proof that the genes from the
    rootstock have become intermixed
    into the dominant scion's genome
    can be seen on occasion in the
    seedlings raised from seed.
    This is why one of us has made
    the comment that a store bought
    fruit from a grafted plant will
    not yield true to type seedlings
    in another Citrus forum. The
    seedlings will in most cases look
    similar to the parent plant but a
    small percentage of the seedlings
    can also look like the rootstock
    parent.

    I have an old budded Murcott
    Mandarin on Carrizo rootstock
    that has yielded about 2% of its
    seedlings from the seed gathered
    from the fruit that will show the
    trifoliate characteristics in the
    leaves of the seedlings. Most
    all of those seedlings in fact
    produce a Mandarin looking
    fruit and some of these plants
    also will produce a Navel in
    the basal end of the fruit on
    occasion, which pretty well
    tells us which parent was the
    seed bearing parent for the
    Carrizo rootstock.

    Preliminary grafting on Citrus in
    the US came about years later
    but budding Citrus onto a rootstock
    can be traced back to the 30's and
    was done mostly by experimental
    stations. It was nearer the 70's that
    selected rootstocks really came
    about when rough Lemon and two
    of the Swingle trifoliate Citranges
    were used as rootstocks by grower
    nurseries. I seriously doubt that
    Citrus have been propagated by
    grafting or budding for very long
    in Israel and certainly not before
    trees were beginning to be put
    together here and in Florida as
    well.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2007
  14. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    We do know that Greecs and Romans were doing a special (very strange) grafting in order to obtain Chimeras and Bizarria ( much earlier than the Italian ones, in the XIII CA) has reported n their early Mythology.
    But the modern breeders reject the assumption that rootstock has any influence in genetic heritage of the scion, only in intersect "traits" .
    I received a long article, from this forum in reference to the subject...but it is still very nebulous to me.
    again thank you
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    No, for many years the Fruit Tree breeders
    with their trees on Nemaguard and Nemared
    and even Titan (Almond) rootstock will attest,
    by the number of their seedlings produced
    from their budded and grafted trees that a
    significant number of the seedlings raised
    from seed will be more like the rootstock
    parent in their fruiting characteristics. The
    concept still holds true today when seed
    gathered from a Peach grafted onto water
    Peach rootstock will yield in more cases
    than not a seedling Peach that is closer to
    looking like the varietal Peach parent but
    will yield fruit more like the water Peach.
    This has been standard applied theory and
    practice in Fruit Tree breeding for many
    years.

    The number of Citrus looking like the
    rootstock parent is a smaller percentage
    than in Fruit Trees but the number of
    seedling rootstock that will appear
    like and yield fruit like the rootstock
    parent is seen, usually are discarded by
    today's method of selection if people
    will let it and most people today do not
    let it get that far but nonetheless the
    same rootstock appearing progeny
    do show up often enough to give the
    probability of us seeing it happening
    significance. To a plant breeder to give
    something significance means it will
    happen. We'll see it in other words.

    We have to qualify that grafting in the
    olden days was stem grafting on a parent
    line tree on its own roots. That is not the
    same process of grafting a scion onto a
    rootstock parent and making the newly
    put together plant a whole (top growth
    only) duplication of the scion wood parent.
    Whereas a stem graft on a branch leaves
    the parent tree almost whole except where
    the stem grafts have been incorporated
    into the tree. The areas of the stem grafted
    branch from below the grafted area along
    the way to the base of the branch is still
    that of the parent tree. Whole branches
    to be a different variety than the parent tree
    were budded to become a different variety
    long before the trees were whole branch
    grafted to yield the prototype 2 n 1 and
    3 n 1 variety trees. Even still this is
    asexual propagation of which seed from
    the fruit obtained from the stem grafted
    area will still produce a number of
    seedlings that are more like the parent
    plant than they are the like stem scion
    wood parent for sexual breeding purposes
    and for further selection. Our proof lies
    in the number of offspring that are more
    like the parent tree. It is because there
    will be a number of seedling offspring that
    are not like the chimera is why people
    today almost automatically will take wood
    from the chimera and graft it onto a seedling
    rootstock and not spend lots of time dealing
    with the seedlings. When in the olden days
    people would take seed from the fruit from
    the chimera and grow the seedlings on and
    select out the seedlings that showed signs
    of being like the chimera and discarding all
    of their other seedlings along the way that
    looked like the parent tree. Some advanced
    people would save the discarded seedlings
    for later use as a rootstock. To those of us
    that have done it we can certify that many
    more seedlings are discarded before we
    end up with the chimera like plants that
    will hold true when grown on to become
    a plant on its own roots and then yield
    seedlings that are true to the original
    chimera. Even still there will be a small
    percentage of seedlings grown on that
    will not show the characteristics of the
    original chimera even after several years
    of selection.

    In some cases in the past the seed from the
    sectional chimera fruit were sterile to start
    with. Some never did yield viable seed, thus
    we are more likely to see wood propagated
    to preserve the chimera in more recent
    years. In the olden days a chimera (branch
    sport) could be influenced to come about
    just due to a stem graft incompatibility with
    the host tree branch. In some Citrus the
    abnormal growth can live up to seven years
    and not have the branch die on us which
    gives us plenty of time to select fruit from
    wood emanating from the graft incompatibility
    induced chimera and grow the seed from the
    fruit on from there and select out the newly
    created Blood Orange or whatever other Citrus
    over time as was done using this same method
    of selection in years past.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2007
  16. esrog re

    esrog re Member

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    Thank you very much Mr. Shep. - would you please send me the link your previous discussion about graft hybrids?
    To the authors. - Wouldn't it be helpful to combine all Threads discussing etrog, in one?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2007
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    I am not referencing a link. If I was paraphrasing
    a written document or basing my comments solely
    on published material that could be found online
    I would have included it. What I've told is hands
    on applied knowledge of Citrus and other Fruit
    trees, learned and applied theory and personal
    accounts that not just anyone knows about or
    had access to.

    Sometime read Vol. II of the Citrus Industry to
    get some more background. An online link to
    that ahead of its time, collaborative work is listed
    below.

    VOLUME II. ANATOMY, PHYSIOLOGY, GENETICS, AND REPRODUCTION

    Not all of the volumes of these great works on
    Citrus are online. The Vol. IV and Vol. V books
    can be purchased through this link below. Note:
    cookies have to be enabled in your browser
    settings to have access to the catalog.

    ANR Catalog - University of California

    Actually, this forum format has made it real easy
    to link to most any discussion on Etrogs just by
    a keyword search query. I am hoping at some
    time that a commercial Esrog grower in the same
    County as our production Citrus are grown, whom
    contacted me through the UBC forum via a private
    message, will chime in at some point in time and
    provide some insight of what he had to go through
    just to market his fruit but that is his choice to tell
    or not.

    Jim
     
  18. dan123

    dan123 Member

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    aron or de bon chemin, can you direct me to a source on Panama esrogim having been disqualified by the rabbis (as being grafted)? Thank you very much.
     
  19. aron

    aron Member

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    i do not have any refrences right now. an article i recently read, i think by ari zivotafsky in the jewish observer (probably september), might mention something about it.
     
  20. de bon chemin

    de bon chemin Member

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    I don't know about the Panama C. Medica in particular. You could check with the Botanic Garden in Panama city

    But, the "Espagniola Islands" had many C. Medica. Some of them from Cuba and Porto-Rico, these were used during the WWII, Haiti has one, S. Domingo too.( called the Earl but there is argument in ref. to that).
    The Ancians ignored the Male-Female ( etamine-pollen and pistil-ovum) relation to get a fruit and by analogy to zoological hybridation mixed the the fiber of branches of two plants, most of the time with no compatibility between the two plants .
    The Grafting in an Bizzaria or Shimera- was made by the union or inclusion of fiber of one plant to the other. The "united" branch was giving ( after many tries) an sporty branch that gave fruits with 2 phenotypes (but with 2 differents genotypes too), as no true hybridation was made.

    Imagination helping, they developed many other ways, suctions and union from roots to roots, branch to branch unions, trunc to trunc...some of these grafting are still in use in our days
     
  21. dan123

    dan123 Member

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    Thank you, Bon Chemin. I was referring to this quote from last year: "some places were disquilify by the rabbis through the centuries:
    corfue,rodhes,sardenia,corsico, panama,haiti." Are there any additional sources for this (particularly regarding Panama) of which you are aware? Also, any perspective on the graft/non-grafted status of the Cuban variety that was discussed previously? Aron, did you ever investigate the Cuban variety further? I have a major question regarding this. Bon Chemin, you referred to this citron as either "Earle" or a "Cuban Shaddock". According to the book "CRC Handbook of Alternative Cash Crops" by James A. Duke, the Earle "closely resembles the Diamante [Yanover]", while the Cuban Shaddock is a "fruit closely resembling the citron". In other words, the Cuban Shaddock is not a citron or etrog (not Citrus Medica), so this is an important distinction. An "Earle" would make it among the most desirable of Etrogim (akin to Diamante), whereas a "Cuban Shaddock" would render it unfit for ritual use (assuming Duke is correct and this is NOT Citrus Medica). Finally, Bon Chemin, when you speak of "these graftings" that "are still is use today" what location are you referring to? The purpose of my asking these questions is that I am trying to map out what etrogim in the Americas do not have a tradition/pedigree of being grafted. If they are not grafted (and are botanically Citrus Medica L.), it may provide an economic boost to these countries, such as Cuba and Panama if the fruit can be exported for ritual use.
     
  22. aron

    aron Member

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    Ii am sorry it has taken me this long to respond, i was having computer troubles.
    I do not know much about the South American esrogim. In fact I first came to this site looking to investigate the matter. Aside from what I read here and what I heard from one old timer who remembered using Cuban esrogim during WWII I know nothing more.
    However regarding your main question, using South American esrogim for the holiday. Given todays enviroment, the major users, the tri-state area, are very wary of where their esrogim come from. Many won't use Moroccan, Yannover, Yemminite or even Israeli becuase their lineage is not good enough. (What I mean is that some reject one variety and others a different variety. If they rejected all the above varieties they wouldn't be able to use any esrog.) I doubt they would consider a newly indrotuced variety. I say this from a practical prespective, from a halachic perspective a clear tration of CONSTANT use is required. (See Mishna Berrurah 648:32- offhand I think that is the correct source.) S American esrogim do not have that.
     
  23. dan123

    dan123 Member

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    Thanks for the input. The only thing that may suggest otherwise is that there was a grower in California who decided to grow esrogim for ritual use -- grower named John Kirkpatrick (San Joaquin Valley) who grew them on behalf of Yisroel Weinberger of NY -- and apparently they were able to be sold despite lack of tradition of constant use. (See link below for an article about the crop being ruined one year due to a freeze -- may have to cut and paste):

    http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/233/format/html/displaystory.html

    Nevertheless, thanks for your input. It seems this issue needs to be investigated further.
     
  24. dan123

    dan123 Member

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    Just to clarify from my previous post, it seems (is implied from the article) that these California esrogim were halachically accepted, which is why they were sold....So I guess my real question is: If the California would be accepted with no tradition of constant use, would Panama, for example, be different?
     
  25. Shalom Yaakov

    Shalom Yaakov Member

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    The Citrons in Californis are apparently imported from certified places, under rabbinical supervision.
     

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