Aroids in Situ for ID, pleeze?

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by lorax, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Hooray for the regular Sunday cloud forest outing! These were in a mid-altitude cloud forest about an hour out of Quito.

    1 is probably an Anthurium. Any idea which one? Blades were just under 1m.
    2 and 3 perhaps Philodendron? Blades about the size of my hand.
    4 probably also an Anthurium; I was lucky enough that it was in anthesis - pollen shot!


    Thanks in advance - the first ID out of the shoot will be the Aroid of the Week on Wednesday!
     

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  2. joclyn

    joclyn Rising Contributor

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    NICE pics!! beautiful plants!!

    3 i'd say is definitely a phil. ha! i looked at one in a store today...looked very similar to that one!

    i'd say all the rest are anthurium - i could be wrong about 2 though...
     
  3. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Beth, isn't 3 P scandens or whatever the proper name is? Hard to tell from that photo.
    Agree with 2 being a Philo
    Can't help with the rest sorry, thouh the first one does look familiar. Have you compared with the IAS site?

    Ed
     
  4. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Eventually I will, but it's late and I'm a bit tipsy.

    3 could indeed be wild P. scandens. I didn't realize that it was blurry, that photo....
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  5. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    #1 may be Anthurium corrugatum....
     
  6. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Beth, when you photograph these if you will do just a bit more detective work we will have a better shot at getting an ID.

    Photograph both the top and bottom of the blade. Note if the bottom and top color is different, and if so, how? Is the top glossy and the bottom matte? Jot down a note. Next photograph the petiole so we can see the shape. Is is terete (round), square (quadrangular), does it have a dip in the length of the petiole (U shaped), is it obtuse. Photograph the base of the plant. Very important! Make notes because these help to match the plant to an identification. Inflorescences are very important, so always get that if possible. Try also to describe the color and glossiness of the blade and inflorescence. Is it velvet? Glossy? All that is important.

    If you think it might be an Anthurium species check the very top of the petiole and look for a gyniculum. That will be a bump on the petiole and allows the leaf blade to rotate and orient to the sun. Very few genera have them. It can be difficult to see but you can almost always feel it.

    Aroids are just too variable within the forest and ID's need more information in order to be accurate. There are over 1000 known forms of Philodendron hederaceum of which around 20 were given names. Scientists finally gave up on trying to name them all when they discovered they were all the same species. It lives all over South and Central America as well as the Caribbean and is as variable as the faces of people. That is how I think of them. Plants with different faces but only one species, just like people.

    Now, I'm relatively certain #3 is a form of Philodendron hederaceum. People call it all kinds of things and that debate has been going on among collectors for 180 years. This is one of the most variable of all Philodendron species and is often called P. oxypetalum, P. scandens, P. miduhoi, P. micans and a ton of other names. But 180 years ago botanists discovered they are all the same species: Philodendron hederaceum. Collectors just don't like the science of variation within species and continue to use names that are no longer scientifically acceptable. Variation can be a complicated subject to grasp. Collects want a different name for anything that looks different.

    This explains about variablity and the continueing discussion over Philodendron hederaceum. Collecors will try to argue this one for likely another 180 years. But to science, it is settled.

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Philodendron hederaceum pc.html
     
  7. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    I'll do my best - many of the specimens I'm photographing are somewhat inaccessible but for the ones I can approach I will definitely do as you suggest.
     
  8. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    You will find we will have a much better chance of getting an ID! I will gladly show your photos to Dr. Croat but if he doesn't have all the material he often will just pass.
     
  9. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Okay, let's take another shot at this. This first set is more detail for the previous Aroid #4.

    The leaf texture was smooth and somewhat waxy above and smooth below. There was very little difference between the colour of top and bottom. I felt on the petiole, and the bump was there, so it's an Anthurium. Spadix was in pollen production, no notable scente. Spathe reflexed, red, shorter than spadix by about 1". Petioles quite long, almost as long as leaves. Growth habit hemiepiphytic or true epiphytic, couldn't find the base so could be either. Not growing too tight to the stone it was growing against. Leaves about 1 foot long, spadix about 8"

    Located on the road of Guarumal, near the Quebrada Guarumal, past the Parque Nacional Yungilla in the parish of Calacali, Pichincha Province. About 2500 meters above sea level, in mixed primary/secondary cloud forest. I have GPS coordinates if it's useful.

    Pic 1 is spathe/spadix
    Pic 2 is leaf face
    Pic 3 is leaf underside
    Pic 4 is full plant showing habit and situation.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2008
  10. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    And this second set is a similar set of plants that were growing semi-appressed to a 60+ year old Andean walnut tree.

    Leaf texture velvety above and smooth below. Undersides slightly paler green, veins pronounced. Leaf blade about 2" at longest. Petiole has the bump to indicate Anthurium. Spadices were in various stages of production, from just open (which were held erect) to post-pollination (held pendant) although none were in berry production. Spathes red, reflexed, slightly shorter than spadices. They were too far up the tree to measure, unfortunately. No noticeable odour, no pollinators present. Appears to be a true epiphyte, as it wasn't touching the soil. There was a juvenile example of the same plant growing a bit lower down on the tree; leaf blade shape was markedly different.

    Specimen at about 2100 meters above sea level near the Rio San Carlos on the Hacienda Guarumal; further locational details are the same as for the first plant in today's series of posts.

    Pic 1 shows total plant habit.
    Pic 2 shows some spathe/spadix combos and more leaves in closer detail
    Pic 3 shows leaf undersides and some more spathe/spadices
    Pic 4 is a closeup of plant habit showing stems and air-rooting or holdfast complexes.
    Pic 5 is the juvenile form.
     

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  11. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Did you check for a geniculum at the top of the petiole? An easy way to figure out if it is an Anthurium instead of a Philodendron. The geniculum will look like a swollen area just beneath the blade. It allows the blade to rotate and orient itself to the sun. Anthurium also have a collective vein which normally completely encircles the leaf. In a few cases, only the lower half. That collective vein will be near the edge of the blade and very conspicuous..

    I can't tell from your photos.
     
  12. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    That's the word! It's what I was referring to as the "bump."

    Both species, as far as I could tell, had collective veins.
     
  13. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    What is those pink/red things in the bottom left of phots 4 Set 1??
    Looks like a palm frond??

    Ed
     
  14. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Young ferns.
     
  15. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    It would appear the last photo certainly has a collective vein.
     

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  16. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    And I actually now suspect the two plants of being variations on the same species....

    Thanks for the blow-up, Steve!
     
  17. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Blechnum brasiliense by any chance?

    Ed
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  18. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I believe the genus Blechum contains ferns.
     
  19. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know...I just thought it might have been the Brazilian Tree Fern Blechnum brasiliense, as I have 2 and have never seen a photo of them in the wild

    Ed
     
  20. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I missed that one! I have zero idea. I've been in an Ecuadorian rain forest once. So much to see one could never take it in!
     
  21. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    I have absolutely no idea what it is. I am probably going to live in the area and will certainly be back - I'll get more photos of it if you like. I should add that about half of the plants here, and a good third of the ferns, have red new growth.
     
  22. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    That would be great thanks Beth!!
    Red new growth, a bit of a Blechnum trait...
     
  23. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Blechnum, hmmm? Most of our tree ferns are of a different genus - the Cyatheacea are very well represented down here, particularly Sphaeropteris spp. Hard to say on that one, though, as it was really young. As I mentioned before, the new growth on about a third of the different ferns here is red.
     
  24. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    I'll keep an eye out for B. brasilense, though - if you show me yours I'll know what to generally look for. There are so many types of ferns here it boggles.
     
  25. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Anyway here it is...
     

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