Aroid ID

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by edleigh7, Sep 3, 2007.

  1. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    I would wait till there is new photo showing the colour and shape of the berries, in the present picture is hard to tell if they will be red or orange and right now there is no definite shape in the berries.
     
  2. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    The peduncle and spadix appear to be upright which is correct for Anthurium schlectendalli. The spadix looks quite fat compared to what I've seen personally but that could easily be variation. Can you show the entire spathe and spadix along with the leaf again? The berry color will also be a good indication.
     
  3. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    The berries that are more mature, are red. I'll take another photo this afternoon.
     
  4. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    Maybe with a new photo of the berries we can also see their shape.
     
  5. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Red berries that are slightly obtuse could indicate Anthurium schlechtendalli. But they could also indicate many other species.
     
  6. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    This is a photo of the berries today...
     

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  7. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    Jim, you berries, are identical to mine, and my Anthurium has a tag "A schlechtendalli.
    so you might very well have a nice Mexican Anthurium
     
  8. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Now I am very disappointed to have moved before my spathes matured.... Boo-urns.
     
  9. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Alfonso, looks like we have the same plants again my friend...

    Ed
     
  10. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Bump!!
    Can we re visit this as Steve has now indicated that it may be A plowmanii....
    I will see if I have more berry photos at home that I can post...

    Ed
     
  11. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Ed, since I sent you that info privately, perhaps we should share what I indicated (or believe). The berries of Anthurium schlechtendalli are ovoid or somewhat round. The berries of some forms of Anthurium plowmanii are more elongated as in the photo Ed sent to me personally. Ed, it would likely be best if you post your photo here and I'll follow up your post with photos I have in my files of Anthurium plowmanii.

    It should be noted both species are highly variable. And if you missed my post yesterday about natural variability within species you can locate it at the top of the aroid forum page. The leaves of either take on many forms depending somewhat on where they originate. In portions of Peru the leaves of Anthurium plowmanii are very different than those in portions of Brazil. I have pages on both species on my website if any of you care to read those descriptions. Both show the spathe and spadices of each species. The spathe of Anthurium schlechtendalli are more lanceolate (lance shaped) than those of Anthurium plowmanii and the berries take on a different shape. But each produces a red berry.

    One thing that is "fairly" consistent in Anthurium plowmanii is the edges of the leaves tend to be "ruffled". That is why it is often sold by the trade name of Anthurium "ruffles" and the Indonesians often sell it as "Wave of Love".
     
  12. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    This "highly" variable shapes of several Anturiums is very confusing therefore I decided to tag my Anthuriums with numbers so I get peace of mind
     
  13. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    I just went and looked at the pictures on page 1 of this thread. It certainly does have "ruffles" or "waves".
    When I get home tonight I will try and post more pics of the leaves.
    Thanks again for that info Steve, I certainly will be looking at your site tonight.

    Ed
     
  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if this is confusing. I tried the best I know how to explain natural variation in the post I made yesterday.

    I'm attaching a couple of photos. One is mine of the spathe and spadix of Anthurium schlechtendalli as ID's by Dr. Croat. The second belongs to Enid of Natural Selections Exotics in Fort Lauderdale and is used with her permission. Her photo is of one variation of Anthurium plowmanii as was also confirmed by Dr. croat. Since I can't actually inspect any plant via the internet I often give only an opinion as to the ID which may not be correct. Apparently I've been responsivle for both of you being mislead and that was not my intention, only to try to help.

    The spadix of A. schlechtendalli is lanceolate or very lance shaped. It stands upright and produces red berries but those berries are not elongated, they are ovoid or almost round. The spathe may stand erect or turn back which is known as being "reflexed". The spadix of A. plowmanii is somewhat "fatter" and the berries are more elongated but the spathe may also reflex.

    In nature there are multiple variations of both species. Both plants vary from country to country and region to region. The leaves of either may be elongated or wide and flat. But in the case of A. plowmanii almost always they posses a wavy edge known scientifically as undulated. Some specimens such as one of LariAnn Garner's plant which is on my webpage for Anthurium plowmanii look nothing like either of your plants. But Dr. Croat ID'd her plant as a very differnet variation of A. plowmanii. You can see her photo on my webpage but I don't have permission to post it here.

    As I posted earlier, Anthrium plowmanii is known in Indonesia as "Wave of Love" and a bunch of other made-up names due to the highly wavy edges. A. schlechtendalli is not as popular with collectors as is A. plowmanii.

    Again, if this is confusing i apologize. But that is just the nature of aroids and I try to the best of my ability to explain all of this both here and on the pages of my site. If anyone would prefer to call their plants by another name, certainly that is up to the individual collector. I just spend a lot of time talking to botanists (especially Dr. Croat) in an effort to understand all of this and get it right for my own purposes. I will be spending a full day with him one week from Friday and if you somehow believe I've mislead you please email me all the photos you can and I'll take them directly to Tom for a personal ID on your behalf.

    Sorry, I forgot to add the photos. I'll have them up in a second. And sorry my photo is not crisp. The original was destroyed accidentally several years ago and I can only copy it from my website. Again, the photo of my plant has the spathe upright and not reflexed. The plant may produce either an upright or a reflexed spathe.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  15. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Steve, I appreciate your efforts and I also understand how hard it is to id aroids via the internet. I will gather as many photos as I can (unfortunately the berries are finished) and I will email you.
    The spathe does indeed reflex, but was more of a dark purple colour. The spadix is indeed quite fat compared to your photo of A schlechtendalii and remained upright.
    The berries were elongated and red. It certainly "appears" it is leaning towards A plowmanii, but as I said I will gather all the photos and info possible.

    Ed
     
  16. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    There is one other very strong and HIGHLY LIKELY probability which everyone must consider.

    Both of the species I described are members of Anthurium section Pachyneurium. And and all of the species in that section will readily AND QUICKLY cross pollinate with any other species or hybrid in the same section.

    It is extremely likely that neither of the plants in question are species but instead hybrids. Either natural or artificially created. If that is the case, the only way anyone is going to get an accurate ID is to pay for a DNA match. And that is extremely costly.

    I simply cannot guarantee an accurate ID without knowing exactly where the plant originated in nature and that does not appear to be known. And even then, there is the strong possibility they still could be natural hybrids.

    I sense a feeling I am not being accurate. I am simply trying to explain this the best way I possibly can. If anyone is not pleased with my attempts I'll gladly give you the email addresses for some qualified botanists who may be better able to help. But even they are going to want to know exactly where the plants originated in nature. It is just a guessing game. And I'm not qualified to guess further other than what I have already tried to explain.
     
  17. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Ed, I'm always glad to try to help. But this question has been going on for quite awhile now and I just don't know how to explain, or guess, any more than I already have tried to do. I do recommend anyone read the post on natural variation. That will explain a great deal as to why the "guessing game" is a very difficult challenge even for a trained botanist. And I certainly am not trained. I just ask a lot of questions of the people who are.
     
  18. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Here are some of my notes that may or may not help:

    Anthurium plowmanii ranges from western and northern Brazil into Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay. The species is found in Brazil in the Amazonas region and in Peru at elevations ranging from 50 to 900 meters (165 to almost 3,000 feet). In Bolivia the species is reported to be found from near sea level to 500 meters (approximately 1,650 feet). A. plowmanii is commonly found in dry forest life zones. In the text Aroids, Plants of the Arum Family by Deni Bown, Deni summarizes a message from botanist Dr. Eduardo Gonçalves (gon-ZAL-vas) of the Universidade Catolica de Brasilia in Brazil. in the message Dr. Gonçalves explained Anthurium plowmanii grows in extremely dry conditions and is often the only evergreen plant in some areas during the dry season. Dr. Croat's type specimen used for the original study of the species was collected in Brazil in the Amazonas region near Manaus, Chacaras de Taruma.

    A large epiphytic or epilithic species, Anthurium plowmanii is placed in Anthurium section Pachyneurium, but is unusual in that section. The unusual features include a spadix, which is commonly longer than the peduncle. The peduncle is the plant organ that supports the inflorescence and the spadix is a portion of the inflorescence. This feature is shared only with Anthurium solomonii. An additional distinctive feature is the either "C" or "U" shaped petioles. The petiole is the portion of the leaf that supports each leaf. For those unfamiliar with botanical terms, an epiphyte is a plant that normally grows attached to another plant, in this case on the branches of a tree. An epilithic species is one capable of growing attached to stone.

    The leaf blades of Anthurium plowmanii can grow as long as 2 meters (6.5 feet) and as noted above the petioles will have the shape of either a "U" or a "C" when cut as a cross section. The leaves stand erect but may also spread laterally in a rosette fashion. The petioles are typically 10 to 40cm long (roughly 4 to 15.75 inches) but may grow as long as 50cm (19.7 inches). The geniculum (a bump in the petiole just beneath the leaf blade) is thicker than the petiole and becomes fissured with age. Aroid expert Julius Boos explains further regarding the purpose of the geniculum, " the geniculum acts like a ''wrist'', and actually allows the leaf blade to turn or rotate to align itself with the light source and occurs only on some aroid genera including Anthurium and Spathiphyllum but not on others." The leaf blade is coriaceous (leathery) and typically measures from 20 to 56cm (7.9 to approximately 22 inches) wide. The blades are always broadest near the center.

    The blades of Anthurium plowmanii are distinctive in that they possess an undulated appearance (wavy) near the blades' edges. The upper surface of the leaf should be matte to semi-glossy in appearance but have been reported to be slightly glossy. Although a variable species with a variety of forms, the blade should be dark green in color with the underside appearing matte to only slightly glossy.

    The inflorescence of Anthurium plowmanii stands erect but may also be slightly spreading in appearance. The inflorescence of any Anthurium species is the reproductive organ of the plant and is composed of a spathe and spadix. Often called a "flower", the inflorescence is not considered a flower by those who are botanically trained. The flowers grow along the surface of the spadix which is found at the center of the inflorescence and are quite small requiring magnification to view. The spathe is simply a modified leaf. The peduncle which supports the inflorescence typically measures 6 to 32cm (2.35 to 12.6 inches) but may be shorter on plants just reaching maturity. The spathe is often reflexed (turned backwards) but may also be rolled. The coloration of the spathe is violet purple or green tinged with purple and the shape is similar to a spear, known to a botanist as lanceolate. Typically the spathe will measure from 5 to 26cm (2 to 10.25 inches) but can grow to as long as 29cm (11.4 inches) in length. Once pollinated the berries produced on the spadix are red and are oblong to obovoid while slightly rounded at apex in shape. Each berry will produce 1 to 2 seeds.

    Perphaps this will assist each of you in making a more accurate determination of what you may be growing. Remember, you may just have a hybrid.
     
  19. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh well if I have a hybrid I have a hybrid...
    Having a range of variables, also makes this so difficult.
    Thanks for taking the time to pass on that information Steve.
    This weekend I will definitely do some measurements and have a good "look" at it.
    I will have to check out the spadix length compared to the peduncle.
    I will also check out the petioles amongst other things...

    Ed
     
  20. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I just elected to go back and read this entire thread from the top. If you elect to do so you will see several times I indicated I doubted the plants presented were Anthurium schlechtendalli. I simply was unsure of what this form of section Pachyneurium might be.

    After being able to review an entire set of photos of one of the plants including the leaf. the base, the inflorescence and more I strongly suspect is is LIKELY a form of Anthurium plowmanii. A true species? I just don't know. Please take the time to go back and read all this material once again.

    I know natural variation is a complicated subject but this link will hopefully help anyone to understand it better if you take the time to read it. http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=40385

    I simply cannot guarantee the species since I doubt even a trained botanist would offer anything more than an opinion.

    There is nothing wrong with having a mislabeled plant in your garden! So please, if you are somehow displeased with my untrained evaluation feel free to give the plant any name you are pleased to use. I just feel it is some form of Anthurium plowmanii.
     
  21. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again mate.
    Yes I re read this thread a few times in the last week.
    I understand variability and realise that this is probably as far as we can go on this one, barring a DNA test, which I won't be doing.
    So A plowmanii it is, and I am happy at that, true species or hybrid that's close enough for me to make a tag.
    Now for my thin leafed variety that I bought the other week, here we go again LOL...

    Ed
     
  22. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Start a new thread and we'll tackle it together!
     
  23. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    Too late to take a picture, but tomorrow I will post a spadix full of seeds of a
    Anthurium plowmanii. so you can compare. I said A plowmanii because the picture of Enid is just like mine. I have that particular Anthurium tag as A 345,
     
  24. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    Here are the pictures I said yesterday;
    The spadix is about 45 cm long and in the thick part is about 6 cm diameter.
    The berries when rip are (I think you call them) "oblong", like most Anthurium berries it has two seeds inside.
    The other picture is the Anthurium plowmanii, the largest leaf is about 1.50 meter
     

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  25. Sigtris

    Sigtris Active Member

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    Here is a picture of the berries, near a US dollar quarter for size comparison
     

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